Camping out
Great response yesterday for the search for your ‘longest’ mistakes. Before I go to Africa (on Friday) I’ll be announcing which one I am going to try and reverse. But for now…
Zoe Fell posted the first Comment yesterday and exercised her right to choose something which I have to talk about in today’s blog. She actually nominated two things: the question of ‘where I stand on pies’ (thanks to Rachel for suggesting one should stand where the crust is thickest), and an account of the Sony Awards last night, where I presented an award and in the process met quite a few famous people, including a bald chap from the programme ‘Pineapple Dance Studios’. Firstly, then: pies. I love them. I mean, of course to some extent pies are like brains: it’s all about the contents. I’d be unhappy to sink my teeth into pastry and find cheese there when I was expecting steak and ale. But in principle, I think it’s a tremendous format for food. Liquid or semi-solid treats inside a pastry casing – it’s a bit like a present your mouth gets to open. I can’t honestly see, Zoe, how your friend can claim to hate pies en bloc. But then, my wife isn’t wild about them. Oh, pies are a tricky talking point, all right, but I know which side I’m on.
Here’s a trickier one.
At this great big awards ceremony last night – hosted by no less a person than Chris Evans (and no more a person, either, in honesty, but he was really funny) – one of my fellow prize-presenters was Louis Spence. I haven’t seen more than a few seconds of his television show, because any show with ‘dance’ in the title has its work cut out with me, and if it then begins with someone saying how tough it is to be a dancer and how much you have to want it, it’s likely to be game over. So I didn’t have any preconceptions. But, in short, I found his camp posturing remarkably annoying.
Afterwards I was thinking about why I took against it, and why I have a similar problem watching the biggest excesses of camp on TV. I find Alan Carr (once a great gagsmith, now seemingly mostly a professional queen) pretty hard to watch. I’ve little time for people like Paul O’Grady. It makes me shudder a bit when Graham Norton – again, a fine wit in his earlier career – tosses in his 21st innuendo of the Eurovision Song Contest… ooh dear, that’s not the only thing he’ll be tossing in!
But obviously, for someone who claims to be a liberal, would condemn any form of homophobia, and is always banging on about the casual use of ”gay’ as an insult, it’s a weird feeling to be expressing a strong dislike for some of the highest-profile expressions of homosexuality in society. Is it not an excellent thing that people can be out, be as flamboyant as they like, and be hugely successful off the back of it? Well, yes it is. So what’s my problem? Am I repressing anti-gay feelings? Am I like some Middle England Daily Express reader who is absolutely fine with ‘the gays’ as long as they don’t marry, have sex, kiss, hold hands or be all gay?
I really hope not.
I think my unease comes from the fact that lots of gay men – a couple of friends of mine included – are, while openly gay, quite downbeat about it and not given to massive flouncing displays, and I feel like those people are misrepresented by screaming camp. I feel that although it IS a step forward for gayness to be gleefully presented as a positive stereotype on TV, it would be a still bigger step forward if we moved beyond that stereotype altogether.
Or it could just be that I don’t find it very funny, for reasons which have nothing to do with sex and everything to do with liking subtlety and understatement in comedy. I’ve done many gigs with Alan Carr and he’s an excellent live act and so it’s a bit disappointing to see him as Token Very Gay Light Entertainment Man. But if it’s what he wants, who am I to judge?
In fact who am I to judge anything? No-one, so I’d be interested in your opinions. Is it ok to dislike camp entertainment while still thinking gay people are fine, nice, interesting people? Or do I have prejudices I’m not in touch with? Especially interested to hear from gay readers. Including, if he’s reading (and I imagine he is), Louis himself.
UPDATE – I think it might be ‘Louie’ not ‘Louis’. I’m not going to go back and change them, though. If you don’t mind, please use your imagination to make the necessary changes.
Posted by Knox on May 21, 2011
You know what I love so much about this blog? In the majority of other places on-line if you’d posted this, you’d have had outraged comments ranging from strong disagreement and questioning of your intelligence to people asking ‘why don’t you go curl up and die, you homophobic something or other’. But here, you get intelligent debate, people saying what they think, whether in agreement or not, but politely, eloquently, and with explanations that make it so very easy to get their point of view.
Everyone’s already said everything worth saying, so I won’t rehash.
Posted by Lally on May 13, 2010
Thank you for your post, your perspective, and your reminders, LisaD!
Kate W, too (re: “safe”/”negligible”), thank you.
I had wanted to say something about camp angay being distinct, and about compressing thumbnailing oneself into an “act,” but I came late and others have made htose points, and others, better.
Posted by Jon on May 12, 2010
It’s a turn off when anyone picks a single aspect of their persona and defines themself by it. That might be the sexuality, their psysique, their career choice or (dare I say it) their race. Rhod Gilbert bangs on about being Welsh. That’s a turn-off. Jo Brand bangs on about being fat. That’s a turn off. Jesus banged on about being the son of God… I’ll stop there.
Each of us is a melting pot of personality traits, experiences, physical features and tastes. That’s what makes us all great. To concentrate on just one and forget about the rest makes us boring.
Being camp is simply defining yourself by your sexuality. Technically, that makes it no different to straight men (builders, for example) shouting “phwoaar” and wolf-whistling when a girl walks past. Think about that, builders. You’re exactly the same as Louie Spence.
Posted by Ben Draper on May 12, 2010
I just don’t believe people like that are actually like that. Louie Spence is just a ridiculous human, from what I saw on Jonathan Ross. I also don’t really associate campness with being gay, it’s just a stereotype a lot of gay people, for some reason, try and live up to.
Posted by Laura on May 12, 2010
Glamlovinkitty just said everything I was going to write so has saved me much effort – thanks!
Pies are great. I never used to see the point, but I think I had been eating poor quality pies. There aren’t many foodstuffs that go so well with savoury and sweet.
Enjoyed Heston last night, Mark, you lucky bugger.
Posted by Robert on May 12, 2010
Gay and Camp are two very different things. As a straight man who spends a lot of time working with musical theatre, I often drop into behaviour most easily identified as camp. I would be the first to admit that it’s much more fun being camp than watching people who are camp.
As far as entertainers go, I’ve found myself being drawn more and more towards honest passion (or at least well faked honest passion). Camp on an entertainer tends to be an unsubtle facade, and if there’s no drive (or material) backing it up then I’m bored.
Posted by glamlovinkitty on May 12, 2010
I share the view of some others here who suggest it’s the one dimensional nature of some people that’s annoying, rather than the dimension itself.
No problem with people being gay. Do what you want as long as you’re being a decent person, is my view. But if you’re a comedian, I don’t want to hear an entire set about the fact that you’re gay. The novelty wears off pretty fast. I think someone like Craig Hill is a good example – a very endearing guy, warm and funny, but after five minutes it’s like, yep, you’re gay, we get it, now move on. Does it really need to be such a big deal?
I feel the same about female comedians who talk about nothing but babies and how crap men are. And black comedians who go on all the time about being black (often with mild/overt racism towards non-black people). And jewish comedians who go on about being jewish. Etc etc etc.
Not only is it REALLY boring to listen to, it just perpetuates the stereotype. And it’s impossible to identify with them and I think you need to do that to really engage with a comedian (or any person). As a female, I find I can’t even identify with a lot of female comedians, because I’m not interested in babies, I don’t think all men are crap, I don’t suffer from PMT and I don’t give a tramps piss about ‘celebrities’.
The lovely Sarah Millican being one of very few exceptions. She is absolutely impossible to dislike.
Posted by cymruangel on May 12, 2010
About 10 years ago, fittingly, I went camping (actual camping in tents) with a camp gay man. Well, and lots of other people too, but it was a point of discussion
Some observations we made:
1. There is nothing particularly flamboyant or gay about a row of tents
2. Teams of 1 straight woman and 1 gay man or 3 straight women are better at putting up tents than teams of 6 straight men. (Gay women not available for comparative in this instance)
3. Skipping around a tent singing a song about petunias (should have been pansies, I know) doesn’t get as many funny looks as you might think*
4. Gay men (sample size: 1) do not have screaming fits when faced with lack of grooming products, but may if there is a spider on their hair brush.
5. Gay men tell excellent ghost stories, even managing to scare the jeepers out of oh-so-mature 17 & 18 year olds.
Nothing to do with gayness:
6. Whispering about people in other tents, particularly your romantic intentions, is a very bad idea, and can invoke the use of the phrase “Damn thin tent walls”
I’m aware that none of the comments above have anything to do with the contents of your blog, but the title reminded me of the whole escapade.
* NB Levels of alcohol consumption may have affected general perception levels
Posted by amycool on May 12, 2010
I find that I don’t so much mind camp TV personalities because that’s clearly part of their act (like Jack Dee pretending to be miserable). In real life however, I find it wears me out, just as I don’t enjoy the company of women who say things like, “Girly night in” and go on about multitasking. I think I’m just very ‘British’ in that respect and like things to be understated.
On the topic of Louie Spence, I wouldn’t describe him as camp. He comes across as being a sandwich short of a picnic, and a very annoying picnic at that.
It’s interesting reading everyone else’s opinions on this topic. I hadn’t really thought about earlier camp figures on TV and how they helped homosexuality to become acceptable. They were talking about Are You Being Served? and Freddie Mercury on one of the 80s specials this week (Grumpy guide perhaps?) and how they were only really accepted as a parody. If that hadn’t happened though, it may not have led to the situation we have now. Bizarrely, I was reading that in Tonga (at least I think it was Tonga) they have men, women and Faka’leti. It’s okay to be gay there as long as you are effeminate, so perhaps it’s the idea that “normal” men could be secretly homosexual that scares people.
It would be nice to see more non-camp gay people on TV like Russell Tovey and Derren Brown. There must be lots of young gay people who think that it’s a choice between being straight or being camp.
Posted by Rachael on May 12, 2010
I think you are fine, for one I don’t think you would worry about it so much if you were actually like that. Apple pie is one of my favourite things ever.
Posted by Chris H on May 12, 2010
It isn’t homophobic to dislike camp. I’m gay and hate it – not because it is unrepresentative (although it is), but because it is simply annoying. I find Louie Spence particularly excrutiating.
Although I realise that I am very lucky to live in a country and at a time when homosexuality is generally accepted, a great deal of prejudice still exists. Camp entertainers can be a double-edged sword in that regard – they have undoubtedly helped in making homosexuality “acceptable”, but they can also reinforce stereotypes and prejudices.
That said, I’m sufficiently juvenile that I will laugh at a good knob gag however straight or camp the person telling it is.
Posted by Mark on May 12, 2010
Hi,
I don’t consider myself a closet homophobe but I also find the overly camp acts annoying. Then again I also find overly hetrosexual acts annoying in the same manner. The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be Al Murray, although his one dimensional character isn’t as sexual as Alan Carr’s one dimensional character, he is the sterotypical bloke who drinks pints, belittles birds and is British through and through. It’s one-trick-pony comedy that can be funny, but gets tired pretty quickly.
Social commentary about whether Alan Carr and co are “forced” into it are irrelevant to your opinion unless it’s not the flamboyant actions that irritate you or whether it’s the fact you know they could be funnier and could be better that annoys you. In your blog that may be what you are hinting at with Alan Carr, whereas with the Pineapple Studios guy maybe you are annoyed just because he is annoying. As an aside, the funniest thing I find with that guy is that if he was written as a character in a sitcom the show would be lambasted for homophobic sterotyping, but because it’s reality TV we’re encouraged by the media to laugh at the prancing queen and isn’t he so flamboyant?
Possibly the only hint to homophobia is that you’ve lumped Alan Carr with Louie Spence whereas it’s probably unfair to compare them. A bit like comparing Jade Goody with a female stand up act who’s act is based on being a ditsy blonde. The reality TV stars know what gets them attention and they exaggerate that aspect of their personality to maintain there fame, which is usually behaviour that is annoying.
Before you lambast Carr and Norton just think what might happen in 5 years time when you might be on a similar path, being a stereotypical nervous geeky comic in order to get the big gigs and moolah for your kid. It’s harder to see, as I can’t imagine that happening to you. But then look at Russell Howard, he’s gone from being a great improvisational comic (that seemed less pre-planned than some of Izzard’s tangents) to his new show where he talks about the news (as he became popular on Mock The Week) and goes off on mad tangents that are scripted. But then that’s what the transition from stand up comic to TV star seems to do, water down the act.
Anyway, that went on longer than I expected!
Posted by Simon on May 12, 2010
Haha, I like how you exercised the age old defence “I don’t hate X, some of my best friends are X!“
I’d argue that at the other end of the spectrum, overly heterosexual “lads” can be equally as tedious as flamboyant camp people.
Posted by Katie on May 12, 2010
The first sentence of the second paragraph should read:
Feels a bit awful to say this, but Zoe asked me last night what she should suggest as a topic for your blog, and I suggested pies.
(It’s 1.36am and I have an English exam in 12 hours – I am tired and stressed. I should be sleeping. I’m sorry.)
Posted by Katie on May 12, 2010
Hi there.
Feels a bit awful to say this, but Zoe asked me last night what she should suggest for the pies. In my own words, “I fucking hate pies”. I do. I despise the little fuckers. Pastry is a delicious treat, especially if it’s puff pastry, which was clearly a gift bestowed upon humans in much the same way Prometheus gave us fire. Meat is good too (although, I did forget to tell you. I’ve given up eating meat. Haven’t done so for about a month or so – there or there abouts? Quorn is incredible. Decided not to tell my Dad since we’ve established he’s a dick. Well, he’s a dick who doesn’t know I don’t eat meat), but combined, this is wrong. There is something inherently wrong with pies.
I have had many a scarring incident with pies. For example, my Mum once went away on holiday for a week. The only thing my Dad could cook – and insisted on doing so – was pies. Macaroni pies. Steak pies. Pies where the meat was virtually unidentifiable. Pies, pies, pies, bloody fecking pies. I also hate sweet pies. Apple pie, for example. A staple American treat that I thing is disgusting. I hate shortcrust pastry, ergo, pies as a desert are a no-no.
I have nothing else to say on your next point. I am, however, Zoe Fell’s friend who absolutely hates pies en bloc, and is quite prepared for the barrage of hate from the pie lovers. Bring it, Watson, I can take it.
x
Posted by Rachel Winter on May 12, 2010
Yay my name has made it into the blog! (I’m so shallow)
I don’t think it means you’re in any way anti-gay – just that unrestrained displays grate on you.
I worry that Alan Carr and Graham Norton feel they have to play up to it, and suspect if they were calmer & didn’t camp it up as much they wouldn’t get offered as many contracts.
I too liked Father Noel Furlong in Father Ted, its a shame he doesn’t get allowed to do more varied things more often.
Um, think I’ve lost my point a bit – basically I think you’re fine.
Posted by Kate W on May 12, 2010
LisaD – really interesting comment. They way I see is that in the mainstream media, camp serves two purposes/has two effects. It makes gay men seem “safer” and therefore more popular, but also makes them negligible; it’s been a great vehicle for getting more gay presenters, actors and comedians into the public eye, but with a persona that’s inherently lightweight.
I don’t think it’s homophobic to be annoyed by camp or just not find it funny, but because the only visible gay people on TV/society generally are camp, it becomes easy to confuse the two things. We’re so used to assuming everyone’s straight that anyone who isn’t proudly, flagrantly gay in a very obvious way tends to disappear into the straight majority.
Posted by Misha on May 11, 2010
Well as a not exactly straight person myself I feel I can pass comment on this. It sort of annoys me a bit, because it’s stereotyping again isn’t it? My best friend Adam recently came out to his parents, and for all i tease him about being camp he isn’t, he’s just a bloke who happens to fancy other blokes.
It goes the same the other way, there are plenty of lesbians out there who pain their nails and wear their hair long and just happen to fancy other women.
Going into the media there’s people like Russell Tovey, I was genuinely quite surprised to find out he was gay, and he’s quoted as saying there were (and indeed are) no role models for non camp gay men. Essentially there’s nothing wrong if that’s how you are naturally, the same way you get straight men who are naturally very butch (or not). It’s just natural personality variation.
Essentially, what i’m trying to say is there’s nothing wrong with being camp, nor with finding it annoying. Because it means the media aren’t representing people properly, and that’s where predudices come from. You can be gay and understated, or straight and flamboyant.
I’m afraid i’ve now written a comment the length of a blog. So I’ll shut up.
Posted by Emmy on May 11, 2010
LisaD, I agree with you wholeheartedly. You’ve expressed what I’ve been tryng to put into words but can’t really, because my brain doesn’t form coherent sentences that well.
Mark, no, I don’t think you are homophobic. Of course, I don’t know your deepest, innermost thoughts so you may secretly be one. You might also secretly hate football and be a closeted Scotsman, but I doubt it. There’s a difference between hate and finding a facet of someone’s personality irritating.
What I will say is that gay people (like Northerners, gingers, and sandal wearers) come in many, many different shapes, forms, sizes, personalities, etc., etc. And we all rock in our special way, just like everyone else does. Whether camp is your cup of tea or not doesn’t really matter just like the fact that football isn’t my cup of tea doesn’t really matter either. People will be who they are and that’s that. Party on.
Posted by tothesky on May 11, 2010
I’m sorry that this comment will have little (or to be more accurate, nothing) to do with your post, but something word related happened and I’d like to share it with you.
I remember hearing on MWMTWSB about you hating the misuse of the word ‘contemporary.’ Yesterday, in our seminar, someone had to give a presentation on the following, ‘Discuss the importance of contemporary staging conditions in our understanding of Renaissance drama.’ It was really good, but, I think she misused the word contemporary.
She used it to mean ‘modern’ and though she discuss how the plays were staged in the 15th/16th century, she placed a bigger focus on how they are staged today. She even did a comparison table with ‘Renaissance staging’ as one heading and ‘contemporary staging’ as the other. Surely that’s wrong? Our tutor didn’t say anything so maybe I’m wrong? Am I?
Aargh, sorry just wanted to tell someone who maybe slightly interested or know.
Also, I maybe should add to the camp thing a little bit. A lot of people hate Loius Spense. It’s not because he’s camp, it’s just that he’s a twat. That’s a good enough reason.
Posted by (Magnificent) Josh on May 11, 2010
Firstly can I agree with LisaD on the smallest of points, it annoys me when comedians only tell jokes about one aspect of their life. I’d love to hear Shappi Korsandi (Apologies for the Spelling) tell a joke about a bloke she saw on the train. Much like Mark’s issue, however, I’m not sure why it annoys me.
Back to that anyway. I have several very camp, gay, friends, but then I live in a small town and everyone gets amplified tremendously. This is broadly irrelevant but I think it’s easy to remember that Graham Norton style people really do exist in everyday life. I think, though, that it’s not right they have been forced by the people who hire people to become camper and camper just to get hired.
Derren Brown, there’s a guy who makes jokes about his sexuality without being particularly camp….
I don’t have an awful lot to say about this.
…
Posted by LisaD on May 11, 2010
PPS Sorry but gay comics making being gay they’re “only topic” in their comedy is a pet peeve of mine. It’s like complaining about Dara O’Briain going on and on about being Irish or Noel Fielding rambling on yet again about being a goth. And can’t Margaret Cho talk about something other than being female? Comics make jokes about themselves and their lives. I think you’ll find if you remove all the references to straightness from most (not all) straight white guy comics the routines get awfully short.
Posted by LisaD on May 11, 2010
Oh dear, I suddenly find myself feeling the urge to (shudder) speak for the gay community. In fact there may very well be another queer reading this who will disagree with everything I’m about to say. Ah well, no stopping now, best to press on.
Camp is this very interesting, often glorious, sometimes horrifying controversy within the community. It serves two major purposes that would seem to be at odds with each other. The first is as our “acceptable” face. yes, it re-enforces the stereotypes and somehow by doing so becomes safer for the less enlightened straight folks out there; the ones who think they can always tell and therefore a gay can’t sneak up on him and sabotage his straightness like we’re always trying to do. It also has a long and vital history. Before being gay was ok in some places (and in the many places left where it still carries a death sentence) flashes of camp were the Enigma code for the gay community. Innuendo, sly banter, jokes that the straights don’t always get, that was how we communicated before we could lean out of the bar doorway yelling: Sweetie, we’re over here!
Secondly, and simultaneously it is our biggest weapon–that’s what HE said (sorry that one was for Graham!)–in a very very long struggle. The camp swishy boys and the bull dykes are our front line attack. They are not interested in being accepted. They are who they are and they aren’t going to pretend to be anything else for the sake of acceptability. They are also the reason why we have a gay rights movement. The first people to fight back, the ones who came up with “out of the closets and into the streets” the proud heroes and heroines of the Stonewall Riot, and the many fights that followed, were the Graham Nortons, Alan Carrs and Velma Jean Merman’s of their day. Pansies are very pretty and brightly colored; they’re also one of the toughest flowers out there and can survive frosts that make most flowers give up and wither. And of course there are circumstances Graham Norton and Alan Carr are not nearly as camp, in the same way that soldiers on leave don’t wear body armor to dinner.
Those of us who aren’t as bold are not misrepresented by the campy ones, we’re indebted to them. As for whether or not Graham Norton and Alan Carr are funnier when they’re camp or not, honey, they may be liked and even loved by the breeders, but they don’t belong to you; some of those jokes are still just for us. That uncomfortable feeling–it might be some gender training freaking out, but don’t worry we don’t take it personally; straight squirming makes us giggle–whatever it may be is for you to figure out, but I’m pretty sure it is not homophobia. Most likely it’s just a joke that isn’t for you hiding in the middle of sequins and eye shadow.
Long post, sorry. Think I’d better stop before I bust out with a chorus of “I Am What I Am.”
PS I can’t bear those dance shows either. Way too much polyester and all of the “couples” are boy/girl. Where’s the fun in that? When there’s a boy/boy team on Strictly/Dancing with the Stars, or Graham Norton is helping the West End find the next star of La Cage, THEN I’ll watch.
Posted by Aislinn on May 11, 2010
I agree with what Adam wrote about you disliking Louie because he’s overly camp and not because he’s gay.
I’d like to think it’s a similar sort of thing to when I dislike really (and I mean really) strong foreign accents. I work as a teaching assistant at a school where 80% of the children are ethnic minorities – mainly African and Indian. I deal with a lot of parents whose accents are very difficult to understand – but that’s just an issue that will always be linked with the diversity of culture and, I’m sure, nothing to do with me having a problem with their race or heritage, as I celebrate being part of such an ethnically diverse school.
Posted by Corey on May 11, 2010
It does seem sometimes that the whole act is purely about being gay. Graham Norton in Father Ted was great but now its like you’ve been hit with a load of ineuendos when he’s on TV.
I’m the same, I’m in the live and let live (dare I say it) camp, I’ve a family member who has just come out at 15 and neither I or any of my family have any problem with it, but gay comics do seem to make it their only topic of humour, and after a while you end up thinking ‘ok we get it, what else have you got?.’
Pineapple Dance Studios fell into that catagory for me, I thought initially that he (Louie) was funny and was a good character, but its just one joke over and over….bit wearing after a time.
Posted by James on May 11, 2010
Campness can definitely be overdone I find it annoying and its nothing to do with sexuality. I have a straight friend (at least he claims to be straight and I have no reason to doubt his word) whos over-campness can get annoying at times.
Posted by Joanna on May 11, 2010
I feel pretty much the same way, especially regarding Alan Carr. The issue’s got nothing to do with sexuality; being ‘gay’ and being ‘camp’ are two different things and it’s the campness alone which is irritating.
Also, excellent use of the word ‘flouncing’. It’s one of my favourites =)
Posted by Ben on May 11, 2010
no problem. i have a similar stance. i don’t mind Alan Carr, but most exagerated-campness-humour — or any exagerated-humour — puts me off.
i’m not sure how viable the link between sexuality and camp level is.
Posted by Adam on May 11, 2010
Hello Mark, sorry for the abrupt response, I was just particularly keen to get first comment and didn’t want anyone else to beat me to it whilst writing an elaborate response.
I agree with you on the issue in the blog. I don’t think what you’re feeling is homophobic at all and I think probably something which a lot of people, myself included, share with you. Not liking people because they are ‘over-camp’ certainly isn’t the same as disliking somebody because they’re gay. Say if you didn’t like somebody because they’re miserable, it doesn’t matter that they might also be Indian or Black. You don’t like a black person because they’re miserable. Not because they’re black. You find Louis Spence annoying because he’s outrageously camp. Not because he has short hair, or is a dancer or even because he’s gay. He’s just annoying.
Posted by Adam on May 11, 2010
Don’t think theres any problem. I’d like you to talk about the joys of lower league football.