Mark Watson the Comedian

A light-hearted look at Down's Syndrome

April 11, 2010 | 115 comments

I’m up at 6am, which is a sentence that could never end cheerfully, unless I suppose I was 14 again and the second half was ‘to catch the ferry and go on the French exchange’. Essentially the problem is that I fell over more than a week ago, while going for a wee in the night, and landed quite hard on my right arm. I thought it was one of those situations where you wait for a while and the pain disappears – my dad’s answer to any medical problem from cardiac arrest downwards – but the pain’s now resurfaced. I should’ve gone to a doctor at some point in the past week, undoubtedly, but living with a baby leaves no time for work, let alone health, so, in short, I haven’t.

It’s not actually that painful, just awkward to find a sleeping position that doesn’t put more strain on it, so once Young Watson had piped up at 4am, there was no chance I’d get back to sleep. Rather than lie there with the birds chirping outside, my wrist gently throbbing and the regrets of my faded-after-a-bright-start career thickening in the air around me, I thought I’d get up. I am now posting one of the earliest blogs ever, giving a headstart in the reading stakes to (a) Australians/New Zealanders; (b) ultra-fans of the blog who get up early to be the first to read it (I don’t think there’s anyone in this category); and (c) other people with painful arms.

All I can really muster at this hour is one of my inconclusive rambles on a hot topic. I noticed yesterday that Frankie Boyle, my sort-of-colleague from Mock The Week, has been criticised by the Mail, and some other people who shouldn’t matter but do, for doing some nasty comedy about Down’s Syndrome sufferers. Someone in the front row had a daughter with Down’s, and understandably got upset. Frankie apparently remarked that it was his last tour, and he didn’t give a fuck what people thought. All in all, quite unpleasant.

The standard response from a stand-up like me, especially when confronted by right-wing agitators like the Mail, is to come down on the side of Frankie and all of us, talk about our right to free speech, defend comedy as an unrestricted artform, etc. Yes, it’s a shame if someone gets upset in a comedy show, but what exactly do you expect if you go and see a show called I Would Happily Punch Every One Of You In The Face? Who the hell goes to see Frankie Boyle thinking ‘I do hope he doesn’t say anything controversial, here’?

However.

Although these are all valid reactions, they don’t entirely address the issue of whether, in the 21st century, a rich, successful and physically healthy man should be able to make tons of money by taking the piss out of Down’s Syndrome, and pass it off as entertainment. Even though I’m part of a comedy industry which will argue, till it’s blue in the face, that you can say whatever you like, I’m not convinced that it represents progress if we’re allowed to say things like that.

Pretty much since I became a comedian, I’ve wondered whether comedy awards itself too much licence by playing the hey-calm-down-we’re-just-joking-here card, and thus making anyone who objects feel like… well, like a Daily Mail reader. My little-read second novel A Light-Hearted Look At Murder was sort of about this. In my time in comedy clubs I’ve seen scores and scores of gags at the expense of fat people, gay people, disabled people, women, pretty much every minority group other than 45-year-old, slightly paunchy stand-ups in suit jackets. A lot of them are just jokes, and everyone (including the victims) finds them funny, and it’s cool. Or, the victims aren’t there, so it’s sort of cool. But all these jokes do contribute to keeping certain stereotypes nailed in place.

If you’re a kid at school who gets called ‘gay’ every day, you’re aware that you are not actually being accused of being a homosexual – it’s just a joke – but nonetheless you will come to the end of seven years with a pretty strong instinct that being gay is a really shameful thing. In the same way, if you laugh at a misogynist joke in a comedy club, it doesn’t mean you are going to go home and beat up your wife, but it probably does mean that, on some level, you recognise and agree with the assumptions that underpin the joke, e.g. that women are all slags/frigid/spend all your money/ought to be cooking rather than doing other stuff.

This is where we get to the ‘inconclusive’ bit because I don’t have a thesis, here. I’m not suggesting stand-up should, or even can, change. I’m certainly not claiming to be above this criticism myself; I’ve said some pretty much indefensible things to get a laugh. I guess I’m not saying anything, really. I’m just ‘putting it out there’. Or, as a comedian might say, hey, I’m just talking here. This is a comedy club. If you don’t like it, fuck off. (Laughter; applause.)

115 comments

Posted by Ian on April 28, 2012

I just saw your excellent show in Sydney, Mark, and being in Australia I didn’t know anything about this incident that you touched on. All seems to be a storm in a tea cup.
Frankie Boyle has chosen to have an unpleasant and ‘shocking’ act, which is nothing particularly new. Someone sent me his DVD from England and I laughed at a few bits but after a while was numb to it. I personally often laugh at sick humour I supposedly shouldn’t laugh at, and that many say is bad taste, but Frankie Boyle had almost nothing other than nasty material, much of it not cleverly written or really new.
We all decide where to draw a line and can disagree on what is funny etc, whilst absolutely defending someone’s right to say what they want – so the only thing I’d disagree with you on in your post above, is where you say “I’m not convinced that it represents progress if we’re allowed to say things like that”, I think progress needs to be judged on where the starting point is, and as such it represents progress that people are allowed to say what they want in a free society – where it clearly does not represent progress is that someone would still want to say it or make a career out of being so hateful and insensitive
Posted by Matt on October 27, 2011

I saw Frankie Boil on his last tour. I found pretty much all of Boil’s set cheap, vulgar, offensive, unimaginative, witless. I could tell many people were uncomfortable, not laughing, others laughing ‘politely’ because they thought they should, the remainder, loyal boil fans, were lapping it up. The ‘jokes’ about Jade Goody’s c*nt, and Katie Price being sexually assaulted by her son were truly beyond the pale.
Posted by Skin Care Center Philadelphia on October 8, 2011

Hi, really very well written! I was also searching such contents since a long time and at last I found it here. I hope from you to post such informative points in near future also. Keep it up.
Posted by Knox on May 9, 2011

last year (probably around this time, or not long after) i went to a show with a number of comedians doing previews. one was Gary Delaney. at first i enjoyed his set, but it gradually got more and more disturbing (to me) – example (and this is paraphrasing, as i can’t remember the exact words):
i had a bumpy ride over the downs the other day – that’s what you get for taking a wrong turning into a special school
most of the crowd laughed, and the rest of the jokes carried on in a similar vein. i had stopped laughing by this point, and didn’t for the rest of his set. i felt self-conscious and like i was being deliberately miserable, but just couldn’t bring myself to find it funny. luckily, the woman next to me had a similar reaction, and we had a bit of a chat afterwards.
anyways, i don’t understand humour that’s deliberately offensive without a point. so for example, i’ve found clips from brendon burns (never actually seen him live, except at the 24 hour shows) on youtube hilarious, but never felt like they were unnecessarily offensive (like, for example, ‘fight club’ isn;t unnecessarily violent, in my opinion), whereas making fun of a group of people with a disability in that way just makes no sense to me.
Posted by Off the Boyle « The Ben Lomond Free Press on February 7, 2011

[...] The blog that Doug Stanhope refers to, by Mark Watson, is here. [...]
Posted by stella on January 18, 2011

Frankie Boyle is just attention seeking. If he had any talent he would be known for his comedy. Instead, he’s known for abusing and bullying people who are vulnerable. What a legacy he leaves.
Posted by rodgernash on January 17, 2011

Just for the record, i am in no way affiliated with phillip nash. so stop sending the hatemail please.
Posted by Paul on January 16, 2011

What paper is it Frankie Boyle writes for again? Hmmmm… and who sold out?
Posted by cherzo on January 10, 2011

Frankie Boyle isn’t actually on twitter. It’s an imposter.
Posted by bizzybee on January 10, 2011

Ooo-er, Frankie B…… the words ‘heat’, ‘kitchen’ and ‘out’ spring to mind……..

Alcohol doesn’t agree with everyone (clearly not with you); peanuts don’t agree with me – but I’d be a bit of a twit if I berated everyone who advertised/promoted/handed them round at parties, don’t you think?

The point you think you are making, with your infantile, barely-playground-standard retaliation is hardly appropriate: comparing Mark’s words (spoken for an ad which he did not write) with your own (unsolicited and voluntary remarks which were (I understand) v. publicly targeted at the unfortunate mother of a vulnerable member of society) is hardly comparing like with like, is it?

Sadly, the funniest thing about Mr Boyle appears to be the depths to which he is willing to sink to score a few more hits on Google.

Get a grip, man.
Posted by Ted on January 10, 2011

Mark is actually advocating a moral, progressive and humanistic form of comedy. IE, a kind of social satire with a conscience.

Frankie Boyle’s humour is not just empty cynicism – his best jokes have a social function, a moral outrange and sense angry futility – but at times he does go for easy insults.
Posted by matrees on January 10, 2011

Mark, fair points to ask, I think. It’s a shame that your points have been ignored.

But isn’t it ironic that someone who sets out to insult, upset and offend everyone, seems to have got so offended by this little blog?!

Perhaps people shouldn’t give it out if they can’t take it.

Just a thought.
Posted by Phillip Nash on January 10, 2011

Hey! I respect you man!!! Your a funny guy with no talent! Unlike Frankie, who is sick, and has alot of talent.

Shame really.
Posted by protopotato on January 10, 2011

You are a safe performer.
Different to Frankie a syou tend toward agreeing with your audience rather than causing offence.
Posted by james on January 10, 2011

“Even though I’m part of a comedy industry which will argue, till it’s blue in the face, that you can say whatever you like, I’m not convinced that it represents progress if we’re allowed to say things like that.”

you undermine your own argument with this line of thinking. if the comedy industry can use any subject matter in its expression of ideas, the same freedom cannot be restricted when it suits or offends. the freedom to say what you wish does not exist to ensure progress; similarly the notion of being “allowed” to say these things implies there is no freedom in the first place.

the issue here is the discretion and talent of the comic in question. Boyle is not the only comedian to use sensitive topics in his routines; sadly he is also not the only comedian to use sensitive subject matter and simultaneously ignore the fact that, controversial or not, it still has to be funny. i am more offended by the notion of Tramadol Nights being commissioned as a series on the strength of its writing, than i ever will be over any number of bad taste gags.

interesting debate though…
Posted by In Defence Of A ‘Sellout’ | Broken Bones on January 9, 2011

[...] Frankie Boyle has used Twitter to lash out at fellow comic Mark Watson. It relates to a blog Watson wrote last year regarding a fan who took Frankie Boyle to task for joking about people with [...]
Posted by Emma C on January 9, 2011

Boyle is quite literally a boil on the backside of comedy. Breast cancer victims! Play with your tits while you still can! Let us joke that a 9 year old would rape his mother, because he’s disabled!

Yes, Mr. Boyle, you’re hilarious. Now, I’m off for a pint of Magner’s down the pub, and may possibly lay into someone who had some issues with me 8 months ago. Toodles.
Posted by Amarillo on January 9, 2011

Hey guys. In reading the “Frankie Boyle’ post it really seems like someone writing in the style of Frankie- a bit of cut and paste of outrage/ justification/ moral high ground/ frustration culled from his recent DVD and Mock The Week. Did you authenticate the authorship? The twitter ‘frankieboyle’ seems a bit dodgy to use as a verification. Just wondering if some randomer isn’t just stirring the pot for sh*ts and giggles.

Also, from what I understand, the ‘super offensive’ comments were actually addressing how people with disabilities are treated by society through differential hairstyling. I understand how the mother at the show felt like she as a mother was being called out- that she was proud of her daughter and did not treat her in the way Frankie was joking about. It seems like many times people don’t seem to understand the jokes they get all up in arms about. Something hits a personal chord and they can’t conceptualise the abstract joke which may actually have a very different intent than how they perceive it.

…anyway, hope you had a lovely weekend.
Posted by SueP on January 8, 2011

Personally I think the boundary here is connected with power and voice. Getting laughs out poking fun at powerless, vulnerable people who have no way of responding is too close to playground bullying for my taste. Never did find that funny….
Posted by Amy on January 8, 2011

Wow. What a vile man.
Posted by Carey on January 7, 2011

Frankie just isn’t funny anyway. (and just to emphasize that full stop) Period.
Posted by Penguins & Pessimism | Why Frankie Boyle Attacking Mark Watson Is A Step Too Far... on January 7, 2011

[...] the blog post, which you should read here before carrying on reading this, Mark Watson uses the furore around the Boyle jokes to provoke [...]
Posted by lisan66 on January 7, 2011

Frankie Boyle, I don’t honestly think you could say that ‘you comment on a joke’ because jokes are funny. What you said wasn’t funny.
Furthermore, Mark didn’t actually criticise you. Maybe you should read the post fully before launching an attack at someone?
Posted by Kate the Brains Wood on January 7, 2011

TEAM WATSON! You were eloquent and totally right!
Posted by Mak on January 7, 2011

This would be the same Frankie Boyle who currently writes a column for the Sun (proprietor R. Murdoch) attempting to take the moral high ground in some way, shape or form? What an interesting idea.
Posted by Ellie on January 7, 2011

Frankie Boyle has gone too far – has he run out of material? But I agree, stifling comedy is ridiculous.

We were big FB fans until the new C4 series exposed child actors to graphic sexual humour which is well out of order and totally inappropriate.
A joke is a joke, intended for an audience that chooses it. The show is on after a certain time of night for a reason, how C4 could allow children to be put in those circumstances, whether they understood them or not, was outrageous.
Posted by Tom Beasley on January 7, 2011

Interesting that Frankie feels this is a personal attack on him as a comedian. It is a general musing on how far comedians should be allowed to go that simply refers to the issue (which was topical when this was posted) without criticising it in any detail.

It is of course a contentious issue, but to dive in and launch ad hominem attacks on a man simply because he suggested one of your jokes may have crossed the line is outstandingly strange. Unfortunately Frankie, not every comedian is able to sell out every venue they appear in and retire happily from stand-up in their late 30s. You will find that Mark is by no means the only stand-up who does advertising. Jason Manford, Paul Merton and Rob Brydon come to mind without me even having to think about it.

The argument you are attempting to start is petty and unnecessary. It is upsetting to see a comedian that I used to respect and enjoy watching resorting to such childish arguments. I’m disappointed.
Posted by Lydia on January 7, 2011

I have no idea how Frankie Boyle even found this. It would make sense if it wasn’t from such a long time ago.

After having re-read this post I’m even more confused. You haven’t critisised him.

I don’t get why this warranted such a personal attack.

I guess at least now I can hate him without wondering if I’m being unfair. He is obviously a dick offstage as well.
Posted by boo la ru on January 7, 2011

lololol

Frankie Boyle works for Rupert Murdoch so certain pot kettle comparisons come to mind here
Posted by Paul on January 7, 2011

Frankie “Mock the Week, Buzzcocks, Channel 4, buy my Xmas DVD please” Boyle calling people sell outs, oh dear
Posted by Dave on January 7, 2011

Fascinating to see a man who insists that no comedy is off-limits suddenly getting all prissy about “marketing cider to a nation of alcoholics”.

So what you mean Frankie is that “no comedy is off-limits if people are PAYING to see ME, but I should have final say on other people’s comedy in case it hits too close to MY home.”

Then you scuttle off to Twitter to call mark “a c*nt”. Classy as ever.

Well done Mark for not rising to the bait (like I have – ulp!)
Posted by rodgernash on January 7, 2011

My best freind looks like he’s got downs. We find it hillarious. We have also avertised cider. Are we now completely morally bankrupt? @rodgernash
Posted by BKNR on January 7, 2011

While I do think you should be able to make jokes about anything and everything, Frankie’s response here does make him seem just a bit of a dick and not a comedian.
Posted by Lorraine on January 7, 2011

Did Frankie Boyle google himself? He was in with the comment pretty fast…
Posted by Comedy fan on January 7, 2011

Don’t be offended by comedy. Any comedy. Mark look back on the history of stand up and you will find that the ones who took the art to the next level were the comedians who didn’t stick to the corporate line and went off the sides looking for the comedy that normal people just do not see.
Lenny Bruce & Bill Hicks are simple examples of comedians who did not just do the normal gags and pushed the boundaries every time that they could. I suggest you stick to comedy like ‘my family’ as this is unlikely to offend. Although I find it really fucking offensive that they call it comedy!
Posted by Matthew Warren on January 7, 2011

Yes the comment below is actually Frankie it seems ( I found my way here from his Twitter… )

I can’t see his problem with an article in which his actions are firstly defended, then examined & not really criticised. Not only that but Mark is quick to point out he’s not above criticism himself.

Cider doesn’t come into this, unless one or more people involved have drunk a little too much before posting…

My view is that we have the freedom to say what we like & as long as we abuse everyone up to & including ourselves equally then people hopefully will not take offense. If you happen to turn on the TV at the point Frankie/Mark/anyone else decides to make a cutting remark about your race/religion/medical condition, then that is unfortunate & you maybe make a mental note not to watch that show again. But if you go to a stand up gig & likely to be offended & complain about what you see then you really ought to be better acquainted with the person’s material before deciding to go along…
Posted by Keith on January 7, 2011

Frankie,

Maybe you should read the next blog, which is sort of addressed to you and goes into more detail about how this is not a personal attack against you.

I find it interesting that Mark is not attacking you at all, but merely using that as a framework to muse on what is acceptable comedy (without making any conclusions) and yet your response is entirely ad hominum attacks against him.

Picking on him as a “sell out” simply makes you look angry and bitter.

Grow up.

Keith
Posted by Keith on January 7, 2011

Frankie,

Maybe you should read his next blog post, which goes into a little more considered depth on the issue.

Interesting that he doesn’t actually personally attack you in the blog, just muses on what should be “allowed” in comedy, but you immediately jump in with the ad hom attacks about him being a “sell out”.

Your reaction to all this doesn’t make you look good at all.
Posted by Frankie Boyle on January 7, 2011

Hi Mark. Just saw this. Amused to see moral grandstanding from a notorious sellout. You are commenting on a joke you didn’t see, and don’t quote, so presumably you don’t even know what it was? Amazing. I’d hate for you to pass through life with no self awareness, so let me point something out. You built up a certain indie credibility over the years with your standup. You then sold that credibility to sell cider. Why don’t you leave the discussions of jokes to people who have heard them and stick to pushing booze on teenagers? In a country of alcoholics.

Yours

frankie x
Posted by Rachel Winter on April 16, 2010

Firstly sorry about your tumble.
Also ‘fading after a bright start’ is a bit harsh (though hopefully this was just the ‘everything seeming worse at 6am’ effect)
Think I have to agree with you, I feel in the last couple of years if you think ‘ooh so and so comedian’ shouldn’t have said that then you’re as good as saying ‘I want to stifle all live comedy’.
I don’t want to name individual comedians, but one or two I’ve previously respected sometimes almost hysterically use this argument.
The reasoning of saying it’s to highlight the publics reactions and thus shine a spolight on their prejudices doesn’t always wash. Sometimes a nasty thing is just that.
I’ve been going to the Edinburgh fringe for years so am definitely not one of the ‘I only want safe comedy and/or have my own values re-enforced’ brigade, but neither do I agree with the argument that any concession to feelings or taboos is crushing the art form.
Posted by Bluehook on April 13, 2010

There’s a simple test for whether comedy is ok or not. If the entire audience were made up of the people being ‘joked’ about, would they laugh or lynch you?

Other people do not help by describing people who happen to have Down’s Syndrome as ‘victims’, ‘sufferers’, ‘weak, unfortunate and defenceless’ no matter how well meaning they might think they are.

I could ramble on, but there’s quite enough of that going on here.
Posted by Clembear on April 12, 2010

Its a tricky one, and is why I don’t really understand whether its OK to laugh at Sarah Silverman. Is it ironic? Does that matter?

Anyway, like you say, people make jokes at other people’s expense. This isn’t nice but it can still be funny. Sometimes the jokes are clever and offensive. Sometimes they’re not really offensive but lampooing racist people. What a minefield!

But whoever said comedy or any art form was nice? We praise and applaud funny people and artists. Doesn’t mean they’re pleasent or good people.
Posted by Beth (@Doomed1) on April 12, 2010

Sorry i havent red everyones comment! but I saw Frankie on saturday, only because my boyfriend had a spare ticket. He was good but not great. He mentioned the said incondent. And he was actually referring to Vernon Kay. It wasnt aimed at anyone with downs syndrome and throughout the show he didnt really make any more reference. He also said about not caring because it was his last tour, but not aimed at that comment, aimed at the whole show. I think this quote was taken out of context. So i think it was a lot of fuss over not very much. He also said if he took out everything that was going to offend someone his show would be 93 seconds long and he’d wear a bag over his head! Which is fair enough about most comedy!

B
Posted by Ben Herring on April 12, 2010

To me it all depends on the joke and whether it’s made at the expense of the stereotype, or at the very least in awareness that the joke is based upon a stereotype which by definition means it is not true in all, or, quite often, most, cases. It is of course very hard to discern the intentions behind a joke so it all gets left up to audience interpretations which can of course be hugely variable. Having said that, no matter how deplorable anything someone says may be, I will always defend their right to say it; that doesn’t mean it should necessarily be broadcast on publicly funded television though (I’d still like Frankie back on Mock the Week though).
Posted by Pip on April 12, 2010

You say your blog concludes inconclusively. There is a blog here that explains the issue beautifully http://christinalouisemartin.blogspot.com/2010/04/right-to-offend-continued.html
Posted by Madeleine on April 12, 2010

I couldn’t comment on this topic for ages because it made me think a little to much, all the points of view colliding in my head. However, I don’t know that much about Frankie Boyle (I’ve only really seen him on Buzzcocks, where I must say I liked him) so I can’t really comment on this particular incident.
However, what I do have a strong feeling on is the freedom of commedians to say whatever they want. I really think you can joke about anything, as long as you can make it funny. So I would be hesitant to say that commedians should watch what they say. Its really up to the public, its us that makes these people popular, if we don’t like what they’re talking about then we can just not go to their shows or watch them on TV and pretty soon we won’t be seeing much of them anymore.
As for making jokes about unnaceptable behaviour making it more acceptable, some commedians can talk about issues in a way that makes you certain that who they’re taking the piss out of is really the racists or the homophobes, not the victims. I wouldn’t want to stop them just because some people haven’t got the same talent.
Posted by Glamlovinkitty on April 12, 2010

Isn’t it the case that Frankie doesn’t write a lot of his own stuff anyway? Doesn’t Daniel Sloss write most of it?

I think he’s quite funny on MTW, but I really don’t rate his stand up. Not because I find him offensive, but because I really don’t like that comedy style – just gags one after the other with no connection. Same reason I don’t like Jimmy Carr. There’s no thought put into it and no requirement for engagement on the part of the audience. It’s lazy comedy. Fine for panel shows where you don’t need engagement, and you only need to say a sentence or two at a time, but if I make the effort to go and see a comedy show, I don’t want to just have jokes pelted at me. Like Shell, I want to be challenged. Frankie just doesn’t do that.
Posted by rvdk on April 12, 2010

I’ve not seen much of Frankie Boyle’s stand up, but I’ve not enjoyed what I have seen as much as what he did as part of Mock the Week.

That doesn’t mean I liked everything he said,

I think the problem here though is part of a bigger issue. There’s a real trend on the Internet in particular, and in the media generally of people getting vilified on the strength of one incident. In some cases the one incident is rightly enough to cause negativity from any right thinking person, but most of the time not.
It’s a bit of a one strike and your out situation. Or at least one strike that gets picked up on in a big way and you become public enemy number one. Until the next one. And they’re only going to come thicker and faster.

A point others have made here is that the fuss wasn’t courted by anyone, but whipped up by the web-o-sphere.

I notice in her blog she wrote:
To show them the hundreds of pictures I have of her, so that they can see how pretty she is, that she wears pretty clothes and that she does not have bad hair (well apart from when she has put toothpaste or Marmite in it anyway).
Oh dear, a joke about someone with Down’s Syndrome.
Should she now fear a backlash and media witch hunt?
Posted by Matthew on April 12, 2010

Mark, Two points:

a) It sounds like you’ve probably given yourself a nasty bruise. Something like Ibuprofen will help, but ideally you should see your GP and possibly get an X-ray.
b)I think you make some very well made and correct points. And it’s nice to hear a comic make the point
Posted by Emmy on April 11, 2010

Mark, I think this has been one of your best blogs to date. It’s made everyone think. I haven’t been able to comment yet because I’ve been trying to condense my thoughts into an understandable form which I haven’t really been able to yet, but I’m going to try anyway.

I completely agree with Adele’s comment that we’ve somewhat become desensitized to harsh words. Personally, the more I’m insulted by twats on the street, the less I care. It still hurts, but I’ve become so used to it that it just doesn’t matter anymore. Maybe I’ve become more self-confident, I don’t know.

That being said, I find ignorance disguised as advice much more insulting. To be told being a lesbian is a phase I’ll ‘get over once you find the right man’ is much more hurtful than a twat who yells ‘dyke!’ at me because he thinks it’s amusing. The first implies a complete disregard for who I am as a person while the second one is just someone’s brain fart.

As for FB’s attempt at comedy, it’s just unfortunate: unfortunate that he couldn’t think of better jokes to tell and unfortunate that this woman was there to here them. But, yes, I agree that he has a right to say whatever he likes, even if it’s hurtful, as does anyone else as long as it’s not a threat of violence. I think his comedy is sometimes funny, sometimes not, but in the end it doesn’t really matter what I or anyone thinks. That’s his style and some people like it. If you go to his show, you have to expect to be insulted. End of story.

To end on a lighter note, sometimes insults can be very funny without the insulter wanting them to be. I was once drunkinly called a ‘hairy cocksucking lesbian’. That made me laugh for days afterward.

_________________

Get that arm checked out soon Mark. I know you are very busy and how you are managing to do everything you are doing astounds me. But if it’s swollen and very painful it definetely needs to be seen to. Then you’ll be able to sleep better and have more energy, pep, and vida. Ole!
Posted by John Moorhead on April 11, 2010

Hi Mark, A great blog and really agree with your Frankie Boyle comments. I find the whole episode of Mr Boyle and his act just a very sad state of affairs. Not daring or controversial, just depressing. Whats more, I know a lot of people with children with special needs including those with children with Downs Syndrome and none of them are like he describes but all have a very difficult life and that life will remain so from now until the end of their child’s life. Well done, for speaking out on this. Have a great festival. John
Posted by Shell on April 11, 2010

I’m with Dean, Anna L and Kate W ‘s comments on this and I recognise that I can’t add anything new to this very interesting debate. I’ll just keep typing to get things straight in my own head really:

I don’t think there should be whole subjects that comedy cannot go near and none of us can expect never to be offended in life. I do not particularly appreciate FB’s style of comedy and without hearing his set I can’t tell what I’d have thought of his material and the way it was delivered. So I think ‘blindly’ that he could say what he wants – the clue was in the show’s title after all. However, the mother behaved appropriately – she was clearly genuinely upset and uncomfortable. HE challenged her so any fuss at the gig was his own making and it sounds like he then had to use pseudo aggression to backtrack. Not nice

The mother then wrote a one-off blog to explain her issues to her friends – it was pretty mild actually and certainly not attention seeking. The media then typically made a witch hunt out of it and made ‘Offence’ news again in its own right and used it to beat their own peculiar drums. I read the mother’s blogs and she remained dignified and turned down all interviews and press pestering which has to be respected. (At least when I read it)

Comedians can use their wit and intelligence to tackle any subject in my book – including things I might be especially sensitive to – a skilled and thoughtful stand up can take a lot of the power out of or force us to face up to issues that scare us or make us so uncomfortable that we avoid them as a society. This is one of my favourite things about comedy. I WANT my attitudes and fears challenged. I like the discomfort occasionally of not being quite sure why I find something funny or not funny. I LIKE to have to examine my attitude and society’s attitude to things.

-So FB can do what he wants although my attitude to his comedy style means I suspect it was neither clever or challenging but that is my personal bias – I wasn’t there.
-This lady didn’t do anything wrong as far as I can tell – she’s allowed to be genuinely offended/upset and is clearly a comedy fan who ‘gets’ what it’s all about but was hurt by this.
-The media is NOT allowed to be falsely ‘offended’ on anybody’s behalf, however and stir things up pointlessly. That is just getting really old now.
Posted by Kate on April 11, 2010

My personal opinions of Frankie Boyle have always been fairly neutral, sometimes I will find myself chuckling at one of his jokes on the repeats of Mock the Week but at other times I will listen to what he’s saying and really think about how it could be considered as pretty offensive. I think a lot of comedians have resorted to just slagging people off one after the other in an attempt to get a laugh from the audience. But really, there are comedians that are still absolutley hilarious that don’t really do this at all or at least not in such an obvious and offensive way. You, for one Mark seem to keep particularly offensive jokes, at least from my experience of watching you on various shows and TV, at bay. And then take comedians like Michael McIntyre and Dara O’Brian and I’m sure there are many more that don’t really revert to deliberatly offending people and still manage to be very funny.

But that said, there is of course the problem that dark humour is what so many people find funny. I find that although I am fairly religious Tim Minchin, a comedian that has a very strong beliefs against the idea of God, is one of my all time favorite comedians. So I suppose, I’m not really sure what I think of think of this whole situation with Mr Boyle. I think I agree with Anna, Dean and Kate that ultimatley he has a right of speech, as does everyone but the audience have an equal right not to find things funny.

Thanks, for writing this blog Mark, it’s been really interesting reading the comments and hearing yours and other peoples views. Hope the arm gets better soon and that you can find yourself a decent nights sleep!
Posted by Magnificent Josh on April 11, 2010

Now there’s something everyone agrees on, no one’s really sure about it. It’s “kind of a bit not great but I dunno….”
I think any line we draw is nonsensical as that’s another thing to go beyond.
So we can only judge things once they’ve been said. Which reduces it all to stupidity.

So… dunno…
Posted by Gilly on April 11, 2010

Another Two Cents (I’m baaaack!):

I completely agree with the people speaking about lazy comedy. Personally, I think that FB works best in a situation like MTW, where he is with other comics who can diffuse/mock his joke of extremely dark humor if the audience does not find it funny. In my experience of his live material, it is (Now, rather than when he started) mainly put in there to shock. Which is all very well, but he needs to be willing and able to respond to an audience that isn’t laughing. There is a poscast of his up called Mock the Week musings (which is a live performance of some material he was going to use on the show the next day – he was trying it out). I was shocked by the amount that he ended up saying would be cut because it wasn’t funny.

In summary – again – I think FB’s humor is funnier not by being censored, but by giving him other comedians to bounce off of, who can save/mock/fight back on material that either isn’t working as well as it should, or is so shocking that it invites comment. Dara O’Briain does that brilliantly on mock the week, as have David Mitchell and Russell Howard when I have seen them appear together.

He shouldn’t be censored. But he is a comedian, and his jokes should be funny.

Having read more coverage of this, it has undoubtedly been blown up far more than the audience members in question ever wished it to. I do not believe that they wish to censor him. They just want to be entertained by someone whose job that is. Frankie is paid to be funny – in his own dark, twisted way. If he does his job, we, as an audience, will do ours.
Posted by MRS PACKMAN-FULLBROOK on April 11, 2010

what gets me is these people chose to watch frankee boyle knowing he’s ffensive obvioulsy they find him funny. so they happy to laugh at other people with him but when it hits home they get offended. well thats just hypercriticle
Posted by Kate W on April 11, 2010

I’m with Anna and Dean on this one – Frankie Boyle has the right to make a joke some people may find offensive, any member of the audience has a right not to laugh.

If the audience member in question had made a big fuss about it/walked out, I’d be on the comic’s side given the nature of the show, but as far as I can tell from that blog she just didn’t appreciate the joke and showed it in her facial expression. She doesn’t say Frankie Boyle shouldn’t have made the joke, or even that she wishes he hadn’t, just that she was upset by it and felt stupid for being upset. The press then seem to have put an entirely different spin of righteous ire on one person’s reaction.

I tend to be annoyed by comics who single out people not laughing – if the audience aren’t enjoying themselves, the person on stage needs to roll with it or do something different rather than pick on individuals. Controversial/potentially offensive jokes can be very funny, but not all of them will be to everyone in the room and not laughing at everything doesn’t equate to “I read the Daily Mail and think you should only tell jokes about kittens”. There’s a difference between being wildly offended and just not finding something funny.

Without hearing the actual joke, I can’t say whether or not I think it was funny, but humour and offence are both in the ear of the beholder. My feeling would be say what you like about the powerful and privileged – it feels slightly different when the butt of the joke has less power than the person making it. For me, there are no jokes comedians shouldn’t be /allowed/ to make, but there are jokes they should decide not to.

For anyone who hasn’t seen this yet, Philip Pullman’s response when asked if describing Christ as a scoundrel in his new book was offensive:
“It was a shocking thing to say and I knew it was a shocking thing to say. But no one has the right to live without being shocked. No one has the right to spend their life without being offended. Nobody has to read this book. Nobody has to pick it up. Nobody has to open it. And if you open it and read it, you don’t have to like it. And if you read it and you dislike it, you don’t have to remain silent about it. You can write to me, you can complain about it, you can write to the publisher, you can write to the papers, you can write your own book. You can do all those things, but there your rights stop. No one has the right to stop me writing this book. No one has the right to stop it being published, or bought, or sold or read. That’s all I have to say on that subject.”
(Video) http://www.boingboing.net/2010/03/29/philip-pullman-on-ce.html
Posted by Maddie on April 11, 2010

Although repeating a point already highlighted by a fair few on here, I do think anyone who purchases tickets to see a comedian such as Mr Boyle, should expect to be offended by something during the gig. When I saw him live a couple of years back some of the things he was coming out with were disgusting and shocking, however, brilliantly funny at the same time.
It would be different perhaps if a whole set was directly aimed at one specific group of people or persons, but as it would seem, there is generally broad scope of jokes aimed at almost every stereotype and generalisation one can imagine. So why is it okay to laugh at jokes about rape, murder or incest, and not other things?
Although there are always going to be subjects that hit home to some more than others, you cannot cater for everyone, so by ‘including everyone’ it sort of justifies the jokes, because throughout the course of the evening/gig/event, everyone will have been ‘on the receiving end of’ or ‘in on it’ at some point.
I like to think that there is some sense of irony in these types of jokes by the people who tell them anyway. I often laugh hysterically at some pretty sick jokes, but it does not reflect my actual attitude to the subject in question and often it is not what has been said that is so funny, but that some people really do hold the opinions that the joke portrays.

That being said I don’t think the way he handled the situation was the best, but if he hadn’t of been shocking, it wouldn’t have been him. .
Posted by Laura on April 11, 2010

Frankie does say some funny things on Mock the Week, but I think it’s because he has people to bounce off of and he is held back by the BBC editing.

His stand up show is not funny at all and I don’t understand who would think it is. His material is either the not so funny stuff he says on Mock the Week or swearing at someone. It was the worst stand up show i’ve seen, he was barely on there for 30 minutes, there was hardly any laughing and it just felt so awkward. I wonder if people who go and see it are people like me who watched MtW and thought maybe he would be okay…
Posted by Numpty on April 11, 2010

“All this woman did was take offence and express that offence by *not laughing.*”

No she didn’t. She was sitting in the front row, and shouted to Frankie that she had a child with Down’s.
Posted by Anji on April 11, 2010

I’m 12 hours behind! But then sleep is important to me and I don’t have a dodgy arm ( Mark get it sorted, working with physio’s pain anywhere is not good).

I’m a bit all over on this topic, firstly front row seats to see anyone has to involve some dedication. Meaning you should know their work pretty darn well. Add in the fact it’s Boyle and I think everyone going knows he’ll be sailing close to every boundry going.
However, I can also understand the twinge when that something is what you have to deal with daily. And as someone put earlier, if the couple hadn’t been in the front row it probably wouldn’t have turned out the way it has.
Did Boyle react in a good way? Who knows, perhaps playing a safety card would have been better, even saying I know it’s my last tour and I said I don’t give a fuck, but maybe I should move on quickly, whatever but something a little thought about. But again, it’s Boyle.

It’ll be remembered, it’ll highlight points and issues, rightly or wrongly, but perhaps both sides get something from it in the end.
Posted by Dean on April 11, 2010

Ah, the more I think about this, and reading other comments, it’s getting me a bit wound up.

All this woman did was take offence and express that offence by *not laughing.* She absolutely 100% has the right to do that. Frankie could have ignored it and got on with the show. He didn’t, he attacked the woman and made it worse. Then all she did wasn’t call the media, but post about it on a blog that I guess less than 100 people read.

Yes, it was then picked up by the papers and snowballed a bit but it’s entirely not her fault, she did absolutely nothing wrong. And while I’ve defended him to death over the Mock the Week furore and so on, he dug his own hole on this one and I don’t have much sympathy.
Posted by Rachael on April 11, 2010

I do not have a problem with comedians being dark and offensive, I bloody love Jimmy Carr and he certainly fits into that category. I have to be honest and say that I do not like Frankie Boyle’s comedy and so I am biased in my response to this recent incident. I however really really do not like the Daily Mail and would hate to side with that paper over anything. (Also isn’t it interesting that this paper which constantly ridicules political correctness has an issue with Frankie’s humour which is as far from politically correct as you can get.)
I am just finishing my dissertation for my social work MA which is on transition for young adults with learning disabilities from school and I have found, like many other more intelligent and educated researchers that we as a society do not treat people with disabilities, especially learning disabilities as equal citizens with the same rights as others. If we say that humour which takes the piss out of people is OK, then we really cannot say except for those poor people with special needs as that is extremely patronising. I am however slightly confused over how joking about early death and speech impediments is funny as it really seems to be to be school ground bullying. We need to recognise that people with learning disabilities have the right to be treated equally, which does not necessarily mean protecting them from humour that ridicules others in society, but also that they can be victims of hatred and violence and lack of respect from society at large and those in the public eye, like Frankie do have a responsibility to promote respect, not bullying. Hope that makes sense, brain is fairly scrambled from dissertation.
Posted by Anna Lowman on April 11, 2010

I think Dean’s got this about right – Frankie Boyle is totally within his rights to make jokes that he knows might cause offence. Causing offence is no crime, and while I am too a dedicated follower of UKSROAB, I think it has its place in comedy. What I do think is ridiculous, though, is for Frankie to then go all defensive when someone DOES take offence. Isn’t that why he made the joke? If he thought it was safe ground that no-one would find controversial it wouldn’t be part of his act. You can’t say something deliberately offensive and then get pissed off when someone takes offence…
Posted by Laura on April 11, 2010

I think the biggest problem with this was that Frankie was MIMICKING people with Downs. That’s not funny, it’s childish and pathetic. And the way he dealt with it was disgusting.

I watched Russell Howard’s Good News the other night, he made a joke about Alzheimers, just passing, and I laughed. My Granddad died from it, and I can tell you, I wouldn’t have laughed if Russell had said ‘Oh look at the people with Alzheimers, it’s so funny that different parts of their brains shut down and they lose all their dignity and in the end they can’t even drink because their body doesn’t know how to swallow, what a laugh, seeing them waste away!’ I wouldn’t have laughed, I would have found him and fucking well nutted him.

What Frankie was doing was giving people more reasons to be prejudiced against people with Downs Syndrome. That’s never good.

As for the people who are saying she got what she was asking for, I happen to disagree. She didn’t ask for 10 minutes of vicious humiliation and being told about how early her daughter was going to most likely die. She went to see a comedy show and Frankie has got away with everything before because EVERYONE is fair game and there’s usually a joke in the mix somewhere. He rarely spends ten minutes on the same subject, his repetetive little one-liners don’t really accommodate that. It wasn’t vicious comedy, it was just plain bullying, there was no humour there and fuck, everyone over the age of 7 knows you don’t mimick someone with a disability. He may think he’s a little hard nut but he’s not, he’s tearing to pieces the people who he knows won’t walk up to him in the street and nut him for it.

I’m glad you’ve sort-of addressed this, Mark, I was a bit worried you might jump to his defence, something I would have been disappointed in. Judging from your tweets I’m guessing you feel a bit inadequate next to the other guys on Mock the Week sometimes, but I would certainly pay money to see you, whereas you’d have to give me a million quid and a pair of ear plugs before I’d step into a Frankie Boyle show.

I actually used to like him, but I think the mark of a good comedian is being able to get a laugh out of the same joke more than once. He doesn’t…and he uses the same one-liners about 6 times a series when he’s on Mock the Week, and then some more on Live at the Apollo, and then some more on whatever other shit he’s doing. I know comedians don’t come up with new material every night, it’d be impossible, but I can watch the same DVD a hundred times and laugh everytime, providing it’s a halfway decent comic. This episode, however, sealed the deal for me. I’m not interested in anything he has to say and I find it disgusting that he hasn’t even offered an apology for it, not even a ‘there was no malice intended’. He’s a coward. Simple as.
Posted by Marianne on April 11, 2010

If Frankie Boyle wants to be offensive, it’s up to him. I haven’t heard the material, maybe it’s brilliant. But from the material I have seen him do, it seems more likely he’s after a cheap laugh, and has nothing new or original or even that funny to say. And that’s what I find offensive.

Incidentally Mark, I saw your live show a few years ago, and I thought you were brilliant – witty, inventive and just very funny. I really appreciated the fact that your humour was based on something that felt really positive, made people feel good, and made people laugh.

This was in stark contrast to the comedian on the bill with you – who did a lot of tired, stale material about (in essence) idiot public servants and idiot fat people etc etc.

Being contraversial for the sake of it is not inherently funny. It’s much braver and inventive to get laughs without going after easy targets.
Posted by Corey on April 11, 2010

I agree with Gareth, it’s a bit rich going to see Frankie Boyle live when presumably you’re going to be laughing at some/most things he says!?! but if he comments on something close to home you take it to heart??. Having said that I know he has said controversial things but in the past I’ve always thought it was tongue in cheek and there was a point he was making, but his apparent attitude to this woman is surprising to me??

To sum up, I don’t think I could ever agree with the Mail, in the same way I could ever vote Tory or compliment Piers Morgan but I reckon Frankie probably regrets it.
Posted by Dean on April 11, 2010

That’s an interesting point about stereotypes in comedy. They’re really handy as a comedic shorthand, they’re one less thing you have to explain as everyone is familiar with them, so they can make a joke tighter and better. And we all know we don’t actually believe in them. But every time we use them, we’re re-enforcing those stereotypes regardless. It’s tricky.

As for Frankie: well he can say whatever he wants and if it gets laughs from most people that’s fine. However he really screwed up here. The problem was, there’s like what, thirty seconds or so of material on Downs Syndrome in the show. He does it, moves on to the next bit, anyone upset has forgotten about it five minutes later.

Problem was, he stopped to address the couple in the crowd. Now if the woman in question heckled him, fair enough. If she’d walked out, it’d need addressing. But she just sat there, not laughing, looking a bit upset. Because you would, wouldn’t you? I can find jokes about Downs Syndrome sufferers funny. If my kid had it, I probably wouldn’t. But I wouldn’t complain, I’d just sit there, unamused and wait for the act to move on. That’s fine. I’d know there was potential to be offended going in.

But Frankie stopped and tried to find out why she wasn’t laughing. Now I guess he does this lot in the show, and if it was a joke about feminists or male impotence or whatever then there’s a potential for actual laughs there. But if that happens when you’re doing jokes about Downs, or rape, or such and someone isn’t laughing… well if you think about it for a second rather than going on auto-pilot and asking, you can probably work out why. And once you do you’ll know that won’t be funny. Frankie clearly realised this and realised his mistake but figured it’d be more comfortable for the rest of the room for him to play the “I don’t give a fuck” card rather than apologising. He was probably right.

But yeah, Frankie can joke about whatever he wants, but doing a show when he knows some jokes will upset people, and then picking on those people for being upset, that’s a little cruel.
Posted by EllieCat on April 11, 2010

I’m not entirely sure where I stand on this one. However, this woman has irritated me a bit.

Unless there was a catastrophic ticket-booking mistake, and this lady thought she was going to see Susan Boyle, I imagine she was fully aware of Frankie’s reputation for using extremely edgy material.

I wonder if she was happy to sit through stuff about rape, paedophilia etc, but the moment the topic moved to something she personally was sensitive about, she was offended.

I think I may be of the view that provided the comedian obeys the laws of the land on slander etc, no topic is out of bounds, unless it’s about ginger people, of course.
Posted by Gavin Watson on April 11, 2010

Hey,

went to see Stewart Lee’s show over Xmas and he did a whole piece about his hatred of Top Gear and how they justified their particular right wing brand of “humour” (about one eyed politicians and the such) by adding the tag-line that it was ‘alright, we are only joking’.

He went on to riff about how he hoped that they would die in particular emphasised manners, how he was sad that Richard ‘Hamster’ Hammond would have died in that car crash and how he hoped terrible things would to their children… and then added ‘its alright though, I am only joking, that Top Gear HAHAHA kind of joke’.

It illustrates the point well… I, too, believe that a comedian should be able to go onstage and perform unrestricted comedy… however, if that is going to be the case then we all need to (as performers and audience) accept a few things:

i) the comedian is going to have to make decisions about what type of humour it is acceptable to perform. Boyle’s humour in this case preyed upon the weak, unfortunate and defenseless. It might walk the line of being ‘edgy’ but it is also has massive overtones of bully-boyishness and weak/easy humour… from what I understand the piece was particularly mired by using a caricature of Down’s (indeed one reason the mother got upset – amongst many – was she felt that it was not a fair portrayal of Down’s in the 21st Century). If we translate that humour into other forms of negative humour then we get racism (indeed Boyle’s pieces on Scotland could fall into this catergory), we get homophobia (what about them gays, eh?) etc… It can never be an honourable form of comedy. Boyle’s humour is generated by the fact that he, with a nod and a wink, knowingly walks this line – look at me! I know this is wrong but I am saying it anyway! – unlike, say, someone like Bernard Manning who could not see what was wrong with what he was saying. It means that this day was always going to come for Boyle… he was always going to cross that line and he was always going to have to look someone in the face, at a concert, and have to justify what he had just said… I am a bit surprised that we are all, along with him, surprised that this day has come.

ii) If we are going to have unrestricted comedy then we are all going to have to accept that there will be times when we see comedy that is distasteful. Comic’s are going to have to accept that they will on occasion offend. It is not something that is restricted to Boyle… think of Jimmy Carr and Sean Lock as two not-so-extreme-as-Frankie examples. Although it does not mean that we should all blindly accept offence when it occurs, I think that the carthetic type out-pouring of shock and horror (that media like The Mail do so well) is f***ing annoying. I know that saying this point is not going to chance that type of coverage – but I feel better for saying it.

There was another point which has been lost in my rant… but the final point I would like to make is there is something not quite right about the ‘what do you expect if you go to a show called….’ defence. I mean common sense has to prevail. If you go and see Eugene Terreblanche’s one man Edinburgh show (fated never to be performed now) then, yes, you expect a degree of rascist humour and cannot really come out of that pretending to be utterly, utterly shocked… but at the same time do we really need to weigh up, so entirely, the suitability of attending a show based on what the comic might potentially say? Boyle has had national coverage on mainstream telly. He is a face… and it is possible for someone to not know his limits but still think that his show might be worth a look… What annoys me about the ‘what did she expect…’ defence is that it puts responsibility back on to her and it is simply not her responsibility. Frankie Boyle decides what he is going to say on stage and he has made a lot of money from saying the wrong sort of thing at the wrong time and it being deliciously funny… and it is now that money that he can turn to to consol himself as he is forced to take responsibility for the consequences of peddling that type of act… The mother I truly feel sorry for, but as for the rest of us, I think that this type of situation is good because it forces us to confront humour, what is funny and what is a joke? It keeps the debate going and roots out the lazy type of humour that is, at heart, underpinned Frankie’s piece on Downs Syndrome.
Posted by Lucy on April 11, 2010

This debate is ongoing and raises some interesting points. I myself will defend free speech until the end, but I also see the points made above. Is there a moral responsibility in comedy as in journalism and education, considering how many people are more influenced and educated by comedy than books, news or school?
I didn’t read Frankie Boyle’s specific comments but really, do I need to? Are they really box different to the scores me previous indiscretions that Daily Mail readers have gone berserk over? The issue remains the same.
I will say that I used to go and see Frankie compere at a little comedy club in Edinburgh and always found him funnier than the main acts! But since being on telly and blowing up, he seems to be actively seeking disapproval, trying to outdo himself in rudeness and offense like a brattish little boy who needs some discipline or a father figure to get him in line. And it might be okay if it was in the name me brilliant comedy, the way eminem’s controversy is in the name me music and humour. But the comedy has been lacking from Frankie’s vitriol for years. I just hope that it’s a badly chosen persona and that he isn’t truly that miserable and hateful.
Posted by Lauren on April 11, 2010

I live in Australia so I have no idea what he said. But generally speaking, if the audience is uncomfortable, they’re not enjoying themselves. And if they’re not enjoying themselves, it’s not good comedy.
Posted by Tom Beasley on April 11, 2010

I’m going to do a blog about this at some point in the next few days. It is a really difficult issue actually as there is so much emotion involved.
Posted by Didy on April 11, 2010

I LOVE Frankie Boyle and find Mock the Week lacks that frisson that he always brought. I love the ‘did he really say that?’ feeling and his look of knowing innocence after he has dropped a particularly bad one. And I hate the trend for people to be offended at the drop of a hat these days. But I’m sure he will regret coming across as merely nasty. And I’m sorry I won’t see him on TV again if he really has fucked it up this time.
Posted by Sam on April 11, 2010

I could (and have done in the past) write an essay about this.
But I won’t.
What I will do is copy something Mitch Benn said which was wonderful:
“There’s no such thing as ‘offensive comedy’ since anything that’s actually offensive isn’t funny.”
Posted by Alex on April 11, 2010

Was also up early (writing PhD thesis, and inspiration (less pretentiously, concentration) seems only to come in the middle of the night.

On Frankie Boyle, there doesn’t seem to be too much of a contradiction in believing things to be unpleasant and/or unwanted in terms of stand-up and not wanting to impose limits on the material allowed. The ‘you know what you’re getting into’ argument doesn’t seem to wash, however, I think there is something necessary in having some kind of forum in which uncomfortable topics are presented in a (more) palatable way.

In order to be balanced human beings we need to face all the unpleasant parts of life and comedy is an effective way of doing this. The thing is that in order to do this the comedian has to get it right. If he or she isn’t convincing (as Frankie Boyle obviously wasn’t to this lady) then it causes embarrassment/offence. But, I don’t think this is something that can be logically worked out in advance (for one thing, the comedian doesn’t know anyone in the audience) so it is going to be hit and miss. But I’d like to think that for every person who is really upset by a comment by someone like Frankie Boyle there are more for whom humour (even close to the bone) helps them put some kind of perspective on the things in life that are too huge to tackle in a full-on, sober way.

So…don’t ban stuff, but retain the right to be offended if you are offended…however, also recognise that what is hurtful to you might be cathartic to someone else. We need to be grown up, I don’t mean that in a pejorative way, but that we need to understand that offence is going to happen and we need to know how to deal with it.

I hope my drivel hasn’t caused widespread boredom : )
Posted by Steven on April 11, 2010

Thanks for the post, really positive to hear your thoughts.

Why is freedom of speech so important? Because if this were not the case, there would have to be a person (or group of people) who decided what is, and what is not, appropriate to say.

Keeping that prospect at bay is why a freedom from censorship is important, but itself necessitates a maturity regarding the ideas we as individuals choose to express.

A defence of freedom of speech is not a defence of the right to bully.

So-called ‘edgy’ comedians do not progress the right of freedom of speech, they make it seem less plausible, and as such they make the alternative (further censorship) increasingly attractive.

There are times when causing offence is the correct and positive thing to do, and I believe the (professional) comedic function within society can do that. Frankie Boyle shouldn’t waste it on this garbage.

My other thought (and question for you), is that Frankie Boyle is as popular as he is because of his platform on the state broadcaster. I genuinely don’t see why the BBC has sponsored his career in a way they wouldn’t sponsor someone like Roy ‘Chubby’ Brown.

Why is it that comedians often defend Frankie Boyle and not the other popular offensive comedians (like Jim Davidson)?
Posted by Debbie Wythe on April 11, 2010

Slightly off topic but in response to Nic RE Jim Davidson on the Channel 4 Greatest Stand-Ups last nght, do you not think that in giving him so much air-time that the loathsome piece of sub-humanity hoisted himself by his own petard?
I was shocked by my own reactions when I heard his opinions – I physically gasped in disbelief! What a horrible man! He really does think these things and is really like that – whereas I feel that FB is just a shock-jockey and deliberately tries to push boundaries for the reaction. That is his act.
I hope that in real life, the”actual” Frankie is nothing like this, but I have seen him live and I do personally feel that he goes too far sometimes. You should know however, that when you book to see him that he is going to offend on many levels.

We have seen well over a hundred different stand-ups live. My husband is a wheelchair user through MS and we usually laugh at all the disabled jokes that we hear – the brilliant Adam Hills for example is well qualified to tell them!

Maybe the real point that the lady with the DS daughter felt was that FB was perpetuating a very outdated stereotyping of Down’s sufferers and for that reason it wasn’t relevant or indeed very amusing?
Posted by Angie on April 11, 2010

I have to admit that Frankie is not one of my favourite comedians. I actually saw him in Edinburgh about a year ago and did not laugh once. I find very little amusing in just insulting people and saying horrible things for shock value. People talk about how “as long as people know it’s a joke it’s okay”, but I don’t think people who like Frankie Boyle think of it as a comedy act.

From most people I know who like Frankie, a lot of them you hear saying things like “that’s so true” in response to his act, and a lot of them look up to him as a sort of hero who has the guts to “tell the truth”. Which worries me. Personally, I believe that his style of humour is little more developed than that of the school playground.

Also, I don’t know if anyone has noticed that Frankie’s gigs attract a different type of audience from other comedians. I noticed a significantly large proportion of big fat obnoxious men, drinking heavily, shouting and repeating the same obscenities made in the show. Offensive comedy can be funny in small chunks, say when it comes from someone you wouldn’t expect, but constantly there is just no wit. Some of the funniest comedians I have seen used no offensive language and didn’t target people to make fun of, just simple observational humour.

Conversely, the majority of comedians these days are great! And I think we have some all time comedy greats in our midst at the moment.
Posted by Gareth on April 11, 2010

I reckon that the women in question, went to the gig thinking “Great! I can’t wait to watch frankie rip the shit out of numerous groups of people” But when faced with jokes about downs, suddenly, it’s all different.

Now i havent heard the jokes in questions so i can’t comment on that sense, but what i can say is that people should take some perspective on things. If they are happy to watch a foul mouted comedien to take the piss out of different nationalties, race, or even disabled people, yet when a certain disibilty is mentioned, its all too far, then they should have a good look at themselves.

But like i said, i can’t coment on what frankie actually said.
Posted by LisaD on April 11, 2010

I was just having a “how far is too far” comedy discussion a few hours back. I’m directing a one-woman show written and starring a phone sex operator. The show itself walks the line of light and dark pretty well, but before it hits the North American fringe circuit this summer, she’s been hitting some of the area comedy clubs and doing a 7-15 minute (depending on the gig) version of her act. She’s relatively new to stand up, a few of our friends have been doing it for a while and I did it in my youth but gave it up when I discovered I infinitely preferred writing to performing. So everyone in last night’s debate covered a pretty wide experience spectrum. What I found rather startling was that the sex worker and the one who’s been working on her show off and on for six months, have a much clearer line we won’t cross than a lot of the young uns playing the New England clubs these days. (I had to walk away when one of them began defending AIDS jokes as deserving a resurgence; some people really test my commitment to pacifism.)

For me the the too far line includes but is not limited to people who may not have the ability to understand that they are the butt of your joke. Of course there’s a line, there’s several lines in fact, some easier to see than others. Frankie Boyle’s comic sense lives there on that grid work of tact and tacky and after his–by the way incredibly funny–joke from Scenes We’d Like To See got quoted on the news how can anyone not see that moment of being offended coming? Isn’t that why most people are buying tickets to this particular tour, seeing just how far he can go?

I’m something of a traditionalist myself. I like when people keep the mirror pointed squarely at themselves rather than attacking everyone else, but I’ve also spent the last six months working on, and standing up for, a one woman show about a sex worker. I think there is an advantage to freaking people out and pushing at their boundaries, when it’s well executed.

Not knowing the joke I couldn’t possibly be sure of the context, but knowing Frankie Boyle a bit I’ve got a reasonably good idea. Thing is, if an American whose only exposure to the man’s comedy stylings comes from watching Mock the Week intermittently online can glean a sense of just how massively offensive the man can be how in the H-E-double hockey sticks does someone who paid to see him NOT realize that he’s going to be massively offensive? Answer: of course she knew he was going to be offensive. What she didn’t know was that he’d be offensive TO HER. Operating from the assumption that not even Frankie Boyle on his last tour would open with a Downs Syndrome joke, I find myself wondering how far in to the show had she been before she got offended? How many jokes about gays, Scotland, Scottish people, probably a variety of nationalities really, pedophiles and victims of pedophilia did she sit back and laugh all the way through before her particular area of sensitivity got poked? She said she enjoyed the rest of the show, so she enjoyed when anyone else was being mocked just not her own people.

Fair enough I suppose, and perhaps she should get a pass for having one of the toughest rows a parent can hoe. Nevertheless if she expects that free pass then why does she get to laugh at the expense of everyone else’s children?

PS And I got called “fat dyke” nearly every day of my life from the age of 11 well into my 20′s–sometimes still do–and it didn’t hurt any less because it’s true. I would argue that it hurt more since that also adds the element of knowing that who I love makes me an object of ridicule to millions of people. Some days that stings more than others, very rarely is it ever done with wit or thought.

(The show is called “Phone Whore” btw for anyone that might live in a N.A. Finge town…oh now THAT was shameless!)
Posted by Jason on April 11, 2010

I had a daughter with a chromosome disorder. She died. That offended me.

The only problem I have with Frankies routine is that it was shit. I saw him a couple of years ago, he was shit then too. I’d paid £30 to see him and that offended me.

Other than that, I’d say – carry on being shit Frankie, it’s your prerogative.
Posted by Jacko on April 11, 2010

Ultimately some comedians get away with certain jokes because they are likeable or are already liked by the public. It also seems to me that it is a combination of both the intention behind the joke (and the perception of this intention is closely linked to how warm
public opinion is towards them) and their reaction to the initial complaint (in this case the lady’s response on the show). It seems as though Frankie took the approach of going hard for the joke after this initial complaint, and it doesn’t feel as though the public feeling towards him is generous enough to let him get away with it.

Personally I don’t think he should have made a joke at the expense of someone who may not be able to respond or understand fully. As a previous comment said, people who are fat can make a joke about it, but the difference with someone with a mental disability like Downs is that they may not have the tools to reply to the criticism/joke, making them powerless.

I like Frankie Boyle, but feel he has misjudged this one
Posted by Aardvark1970 on April 11, 2010

Beat ya! I was up at 3:30am because the cat was convinced there was a monster in the wardrobe. Strange how that belief is strongly correlated to his food bowl being empty.

I think that freedom of speech is important but I also think that if you have a right to say what you think then you also have the responsibility to think about the consequences of what you say and if you are a person of influence, then you have a greater responsibility to do so. A self-reflective person might laugh at such a gag, feel instantly guilty and then question why they found it funny in the first place but there are less self-critical people who will simply take that kind of remark from a celebrity as a green-light for bullying the afflicted. If I were a comedian, I don’t think that I would feel very good about myself if I thought that I had given that type of person ammo.
Posted by deanna on April 11, 2010

“people” would say it’s not good to be pc in comedy, or that comedy is exempt from being pc because it’s “only a joke”. but that’s like saying “no offense” when you know something is going to cause offence. it doesn’t excuse the comment, it just makes you an ass. even the “it’s funny because it’s true” excuse doesn’t (or shouldn’t) cover making fun of people who are different. What a stupid, cheap laugh.
Posted by Emma on April 11, 2010

Very well said; I haven’t been able to express my thoughts on the matter because they were all jumbled, and you encapsulated my feelings.

I am totally buying your books.
Posted by david on April 11, 2010

I genuinely think ‘offensive’ comedy is on the way out, having gained in popularity thanks to the likes of Jimmy Carr. Frankie is such an extreme that he can’t be outdone in the offensiveness. (it’s like he is a swollen star before a comedy supernova). This is where you come in mark, with the other ‘kind’ comedians and start the new wave.
Posted by Joanne on April 11, 2010

When I first read about this, my initial reaction was “Oh for gods sake, another idiot ruins a comedy gig for everyone because they’ve been offended and must make their feelings known to the comedian immediately, rather than waiting until after the gig to approach the venue management or the comic himself”.

Then I read the blog entry from the mum involved (from what I can see, the lady didn’t rush to the Mail to vent her spleen – she simply blogged about it, the blog was picked up by people on facebook and *spit* Mumsnet *spit*, and then a Daily Mail journalist ran the story). I can see why she would have been offended by “jokes” about the physical appearance of DS kids, and their lower life expectancy. I am not averse to a bit of offensive comedy, and even when it’s at the more extreme end of the spectrum like Mr. Boyle, I can identify the joke and understand why some people might find it amusing, even if I don’t.

However, simply picking on down syndrome people because of their appearance and health problems is not only needlessly offensive and unfunny, it is lazy. No subject is really off-limits in stand-up so long as the observation is clever and not merely a cheap shot. It is quite possible to make down syndrome the butt of a joke without being offensive – look at the DS character in Chris Lilley’s “Summer heights high” for evidence of this. He pokes fun at the tendency DS kids have to be over affectionate, which is funny without being needlessly nasty.

Additionally, after hearing about this gag, I can’t help thinking how Boyle is just a hair’s breadth away from stepping into Jim Davidson territory, making cracks about, for example, Chinese people having slitty eyes and a funny voice. It’d be just as low and lazy as his DS joke. And for this reason, I don’t think it’s fair for people to say “Oh well, you know what Frankie is like, you should have been prepared to be offended”. He crossed the line and he knew it.

I doubt we’ll get a right-to-reply from Mr. Boyle. As he so eloquently put it, “This is my last tour and I don’t give a fuck who I offend”, even if the butt of his joke is innocent “Down syndrome victims”, as the Daily Mail so eloquently and sensitively titled their report on this incident.
Posted by Mike Grant on April 11, 2010

Interesting post. Fascinating to read another comedian’s views on this, particularly one who actually knows Frankie.

My own view on this brand of humour is pretty simple, really. Is the joke meant maliciously? If so, then I’m not a fan. But there’s plenty of really cutting stuff that has made me laugh in the past because it has some thought behind the insult, so it’s the motivation behind the gag that’s important to me.

I’d query FB’s fact checking, incidentally. On my way back from holiday last week, I was behind a family with a kid with Down’s Syndrome in the check-in queue. And I can assure you that his haircut was way fucking better than the one I had in school. Thanks, Mum.
Posted by Fiona on April 11, 2010

Great blog – good to get people thinking about both sides of the issue.

In my opinion, I think you have to ask yourself why a comedian is being offensive, because it isn’t necessarily the same for each stand-up or even each routine. As quite a few people have mentioned in these comments, a lot of comics manage to create material that is both challenging and enlightening for the audience, while basing it on something that is ostensibly offensive. I also think that it’s right that comedians should be able to challenge and question taboos, and we should be wary of prescribing what subject matter is off limits because this can do more damage than good.

However, I think it’s telling that Frankie Boyle’s show appears to do nothing more than simply reiterate tired stereotypes and deliver nasty comments with no real purpose, unlike a lot of other comedians who use offensiveness as a way of making a larger point. And the fact that Frankie gets such huge audiences surely proves that his brand of comedy isn’t particularly shocking any more – it’s obviously pretty appealing to the mainstream, to the point that what he’s doing seems more lazy than challenging.

Then again, the size of the audiences show that it’s working and Frankie’s obviously doing very well out of it. But for me personally, I’d rather spend my money on going to see comedy that’s slightly more thoughtful.
Posted by Louise on April 11, 2010

I have talked about this with a few friends over the weekend and there seems to be two camps ‘people who were actually at the tour heard the joke and think that people are exaggerating’ or ‘people who have just read a summary of it in a paper and are disgusted’. I went to the tour and from what I remember it wasnt actually an attack on people with down syndrome themselves but then again I wasnt there the night that that happened so the material might have changed. The ‘I dont give a fuck this is my last tour’ was said everynight at a different part of the show so I dont know whether he really did say that to the family members as the daily mail suggested because reading other articles on it this bit wasnt mentioned. I am a firm believer that if you go see someone who is famous for being an offensive comedian then you cant really complain, did you notice that she said she was laughing at the rest of the set up until that point and believe me there were much worse things said than that but when it directly affected her she was upset. I think it was jerry sadowitz who said he cant exclude certain topics when making offensive jokes after he made a joke about rape and a woman who had been raped left his show. I went to see bill burr who said a short piece on how annoying women are and how he would hit them and I thought it was funny, as long as you know that they dont actually mean it and its just to get a laugh unlike the horrible jim davidson then I think its okay. On the other hand I wasnt particularly impressed with frankies tour and there were long gaps of no laughter from myself because he was just saying things for shock value with no actual jokes behind it. I like quite dark material but if there is no wit involved then whats the point in saying it? I had just seen stewart lee two days before so I had already seen how a show should really be done and therefore probably was another reason that I hardly laughed at frankie.
Posted by Steph on April 11, 2010

Great blog! I agree with lots of the comments here, but I also feel bad for Frankie Boyle, I know in situations where I’ve unduly upset someone by forgetting the consequence of my words I’ve been kept awake at night for weeks with the feeling of guilt. It’s not a good feeling, even if it is the ‘right’ feeling to have in these situations. Language is a dangerous thing!
Posted by Debbie on April 11, 2010

It’s like all comedy, it’s bloody funny if you yourself are not in the category being ridiculed! It reflects life, whether playground teasing or whatever. Jokes are different to setting about someone with a weapon. frankie Boyle et al would not condone actual persicution verbal or physical. One has to take the rough with the smooth and don’t go/listen if you are at risk of being offended. FB may be a bit of an obnoxious arse, disliked by other comedians for all I know (and I don’t know). I found his joke about Rebecca Addlington (listened to on a podcast) v funny but if I was her I would have cried for weeks!! It’s like life at home, in office, with friends we hope they are not talking about us in a bad way but the chances are they are at some point! Enough said.
Posted by Steven Harris on April 11, 2010

Frankie’s had enough exposure for people to know that his material is not going to be light and fluffy. And it’s not really accurate to consider him cruel about any specific demographic as he targets anyone and everyone. I’d rather a comedian was trying to bring issues like this into the forefront than the storyline Eastenders did with Down’s Syndrome a few years back. I find soap operas preaching about ‘social issues’ more offensive than comedians taking comedy to the edges of good taste and then jumping over the line. Oh and by the way, two members of my family have Down’s Syndrome.
Posted by Rachael on April 11, 2010

I agree with all your points. Nobody goes to a Frankie Boyle show and doesn’t expect him to be controversial but then I would be pretty annoyed if I paid to get upset.
Posted by Nic (@nwoolhouseuk) on April 11, 2010

Brilliant blog Mark.
Offensiveness in comedy is a rather hot topic at the moment and this debate has been raging for a while now. I do think it is possible to be controversial and push the boundaries of comedy in such an offensive way if there is context to it, it is justified in some way. I know people would say, how can negative statements against any group of people be justified. To understand my point you would need to see Richard Herring or Brendon Burns (they were highly criticised in the press last year for their offensiveness) as in context their tirade on stage is to explore the idea of offensive comedy not to actually offend. I think many comedians do this but it is all on a scale,some are more controversial than others. I disagree with racism, homophobia, sexist jokes for the sake of a cheap laugh, in modern society we should all be better than that, but then how far does this go. Can a comedian not make jokes about chavs or babies? They are groups of people, but of course comedians will as they should, the question is are they offending for the sake of offending? Or are they making a true observation or a point?

It infuriated me last night to see Jim Davison get minutes of TV time of the 100 stand ups show, he was openly admitted he does not like women and is racist and doesn’t care, yet channel 4 let him say such things on national TV? That I do not understand, why are there not comedy police to deal with him?
Posted by Richard Gladwell on April 11, 2010

It’s fair to say that the Comedy industry (is it an industry? who knows?) may be going too far, and that Frankie Boyle is at the head of this tide of taboo. But the argument, ‘hey, we’re just joking man’ is still very much a legitimate one, and so is the ‘don’t come to the show of a shocker comedian if you don’t want to be shocked,’ I don’t agree with Frankie’s down’s syndrome joke, but I also don’t agree with the woman who complained so loudly.

To me this speaks of yes another time when one person has complained, and the next day thousands who never saw the original show complained again, (read: Jonathan Ross). There is not need for every Sun-reading moron to complain about the slightest thing, and this I think is a more important thing than a comedian making a harsh joke.
But that’s just what I think.
Posted by Mat Baker on April 11, 2010

I suffer from ME, and a little while ago, someone posted me a link to a Ricky Gervais gig where he took the piss out of the illness. Initially, I was a bit peeved, but after I had processed it, I realised that to get upset about humour that affects me, whilst laughing at a range of controversial topics that do not makes me a hypocrite.

Whilst I have a little sympathy for the mother that was affected by this, I think that if we looked at the whole gig, it is really likely that she laughed away at other material that would have upset others.

Frankie Boyle delights in pushing his luck – he is renowned for it (and I love him for it) – and I think if you go to see him you have to accept that he might laugh at things that are a bit close to home…

If you can’t accept that, you shouldn’t be going to see him. Maybe stay at home and watch a few prime time sitcoms…
Posted by Mandi on April 11, 2010

Good blog this morning – we all know what frankie is like and while distateful I don’t think anyone could believe that he has any sort of internal regulator that will stop him “having a go” at just about anyone. There was comedian on Live at the Apollo (can’t remember his name sorry) but he said something like “people get offended, so what? nothing happens…”. But newspapers get involved and then it gets out of all proportion. I am a fat person and I LOVE live comedy but get nervous before a gig because I know I am a likely target, I try not to get seats at the front but will not miss out on something that I love(wish it was cheaper though).

Do you really think your career is flagging Mark? I was so happy that you were on the Now Show this week. I guess TV pays more but radio is where its at for me brilliant comedy.
Posted by Sarah on April 11, 2010

I am disabled and was bullied for years at school, from which I’ve never quite recovered. However, there is a huge difference between kids throwing around words they don’t understand to hurt and abuse to make themselves look “cool” and a stand up comic.

People expect me to be offended by any joke or comment about disability but I’m not! Most of the time it’s light hearted and covers what most people are thinking but too afraid to say. The more people are open and honest the more stereotypes are broken down.

I can’t comment on frankie’s jokes or whether the mother was right to be offended – that’s her perogative. She did the right thing, expressed her opinion a little at the time and voiced her concerns later. What I hate are people who are offended for the sake of being offended. Just look at the jimmy carr hoopla last year!
Posted by Claire on April 11, 2010

This was a great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts (and I hope the arm feels better soon). I’ve been thinking a lot about this too – I’m a huge Boyle fan and usually would be the first to defend his right to say whatever he pleases.

However…

Like others here, I find this particular joke more than a little out if line (and woefully out of touch), and not in a “haha, oh he’s being so controversial” way. More in a, “wow. That joke sounds neither clever nor funny” (not something I ever thought I’d say about Boyle. Even when his jokes are perhaps harsher than my personal taste, I can usually appreciate the wit and intelligence at play. Here, not so much). I guess I’m in the team that would say that taking the piss out of people who can defend themselves is one thing…belittling and attacking those who cannot defend themselves is just a little crass.

Wow, I hope that made sense- am typing this on a megabus, so forgive me any rambling… Thanks again for this post. I guess it’s always difficult to know where to draw lines, but I think it’s important to discuss these things.

Good luck with the arm – try to make time to see a doctor!

Cxx
Posted by Katie on April 11, 2010

I’m a bit late to the party – it’s 10.40 am just now, sorry.

I went to see Frankie on this tour – I’ve heard the joke first hand, and I’m not going to lie and say “Oh, no, I didn’t laugh – don’t be so absurd! I’m a much better person than that!” because I did laugh. My pal who was with me laughed; in fact, I suspect most of the theatre laughed. Then I asked myself if I should be laughing, I had a bit of a moral debate, etc, and managed the conclusion that I wasn’t really sure. That’s my problem with Boyle – I’m never quite sure if it’s ok to laugh, or if I should set about him with one of my “letters of complaint”. My Grandad told me about this yesterday, and I think his reaction was probably the most effective summary of this situation I’ve heard so far: “Och, he’s only doing it to keep himself in the papers.” If I didn’t mention Boyle to most of my family, they wouldn’t have heard of them, etc. At least, that’s what I think. I’ve just noticed from my past two comments that my family appear quite philosophical, we’re not, really. The same man also genuinely doesn’t believe that deer exist. Sorry to crush any illusions.

Someone (I can’t remember who, and I think I’m paraphrasing) once said the best way to get over stigma was to ridicule it. Maybe that’s true with Boyle, maybe it’s true with everyone, or maybe Frankie just likes looking like a bit of a dick. Who knows.

(Oh, and have you tried using Deep Heat spray on your wrist, by the way? I’ve got a bit of a stupid wrist that’s prone to going into large, painful spasms, and Deep Heat works an absolute treat. It stinks to the high heavens, but it’s really good.)

So there.
Posted by Vanessa on April 11, 2010

I saw Frankie B at the Edinburgh Fringe on impulse a few years ago when he wasn’t as well known and he was pretty crap – crude, obvious jokes you could see coming a mile off and despite it being nearly the end of the run he still had sheets of paper with cues spread out along the front of the stage. All in all pretty unprofessional, especially when compared to other comedians I saw that summer such as Adam Hills and Rich Hall.

The problem with this incident is that he’s using people who can’t defend themselves as a focus for his jokes and that’s not on. I have epilepsy and would probably object to jokes about that, especially if (like his material on DS) it relied on outdated cliches and was ill-informed. But, and this is important, I am more than capable of defending myself and although I wouldn’t probably start an argument halfway through someone’s gig I would feel perfectly ok collaring them in the bar afterwards or blogging about it very vociferously.

And other groups who some comedians see as acceptable targets – fat people, gay people, ginger haired people, Christians, Muslims… are all capable of defending themselves. People with Down’s can’t do that and thus aren’t a suitable target. Needing to attack people who can’t tell you to back off is unacceptable.

Glad to hear it’s Frankie Boyle’s last tour – he’s probably realised that his humour is a bit two-dimensional and that he should quit while he’s ahead.
Posted by Rose on April 11, 2010

Kittens. You forgot people with kittens who demand breakfast at 6am.

I love comedy to the point of obsession. My personal taste doesn’t often stray into the dark and edgy stuff (I generally prefer puns and whimsy) but I like being challenged occasionally. That’s why I’m a huge fan of Brendon Burns. When he starts a routine, it’s not always immediately clear where he’s going with it. It can get you riled up, indignant, and offended. But then he will switch it around. You have to look at your own thoughts, how society views the subject matter, and other vague sentences in this scenario where I’ve not chosen a specific example.

My point is, there is a difference between racist jokes and jokes about racism. There is a difference between lazily mocking someone with disabilities and commenting/questioning how society treats them.

From what I’ve heard (always an ominous beginning to a sentence) Boyle was being shocking for the sake of it, lazy, and offensive. It seems to be the kind of pointing-and-laughing joke that perpetuates a unfortunate situation rather than seeking to change it. That’s not especially funny to me.

But then, that’s why I don’t buy tickets to go and see Frankie Boyle.
Posted by MrHodgePodge on April 11, 2010

Re: Boyle

Say whatever you want if you are challenging preconceptions or exploring the why’s and wherefores of how certain subjects might cause offence. Boyle is purposefully shocking and offensive because it’s the only way he knows to make some people laugh. There is no point or structure to his act. It’s lazy, easy “comedy”. Rather than challenging taboos, he reinforces them.

The only time I’ve seen Boyle show any wit was on Buzzcocks – which has a team of very good writers!
Posted by Damon on April 11, 2010

I got a paper-cut once, so I know how you must feel with your arm…
Posted by chelsea on April 11, 2010

Quite a good read, i followed it from your twitter as i’m pretty nosy and the only other stuff on there was about my friend’s cat. it’s a nice cat, but i don’t really care for it.

anyhoo, i’ve always liked ‘dark’ comedy as it’s often referred to, but i must admit there have been times when i’ve thought “oh, god. can i laugh at that and still be a morally good person?” i hope so. i’d hate to be a dick and a morally bad person.

nonetheless, i think it’s difficult these days to get a mention in the comedy circuit, as you very well know, so maybe some of the newer comedians need to be ‘out-there’ with their comedy, and Frankie is known for his ‘out-there’ remarks, so i don’t understand why everyone is surprised.

that’s about it, really.
Posted by Misha on April 11, 2010

It’s nearly 10 here but I woke up an hour ago with a cracking hangover and aching muscles so I can sort of sympathise. (Incidentally it sounds like you might have sprained your wrist, something I can do at the drop of a hat. Get thee to a doctor!)

I feel a bit special and internet savy that I actually read the blog from which this whole thing came, before it started. Throughout the woman continually states she enjoyed the show apart from that bit, and was quite nervous about having front row tickets. If she’d been further back in the theatre none of this would have come up, it’s just chance.

But relating to the insults and stereotyping calling someone gay is quite a common insult at school. Over the past 7 years I’ve had every variation on “fuck off you fat lesbian” shouted at me, both from peers and later from work. Something which I find hurtful more than being called a cunt or similar, because some thought has gone into it. It also pisses me off since I’m neither. I’m no size zero but I don’t think I’m particularly fat. But thats kids, and another matter entirely.

It makes you wonder though, on the one hand Frankie probably shouldn’t be making money from reinforcing stereotypes and taking the piss out of someone who’s not there to defend themselves, but on the other he’s not exactly renowned for being tactful or polite so maybe that’s what the audience should expect.

I don’t know. I’ll shut up now.
Posted by Gilly on April 11, 2010

Incidentally, here’s the link to the BBC article on the FB incident:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8611275.stm
Posted by lex on April 11, 2010

You. Are. Brilliant. Thank you for writing this.

I apologise in (hindsight)advance. I had a bit of a brackety word binge.

I am so bloody excited about what I am starting to see (from my admittedly distant antipodean perch) of this sort of rising collective of new comedy (you, Key, Long, Horne, Higgins, O’Doherty, Woolf, Basden, others…). There’s a spirit to it which doesn’t just use easy, staid targets to get hollow (and often cruel) status quo laughs. Don’t get me wrong, I love the dark shit, but there are ways and there are ways.

I think you belong to a movement of comedians who are creating new ways to view the world by creating new ways of engaging in audienceship (that sounds wanky, but y’know), but also through the themes you cover and how. And I don’t mean that this is done in some obviously intended, blatant yucky preachy sanctimonious way. I just mean that the overall vibe I get from you and your associates (in what might one day be named something cool (if it’s not already) like the UK School of Reflexive Off-Absurdist Banterism.. hehe sweet, UKSROAB.) is.. gentle. You know?

Maybe you and yours are signals of the dawning of the fall of late 20th century frozen cynicism (jesus, I sound like a gnarlish soothsayer). I think that what makes comedy funny is that it always has a core of truth, or assumption, or something. This helps me think about why I’m laughing and why I find some comedy shit and why I love others.

And the core of truth of your work, comedic and writey, is squishy and kind and warm and accepting. It acknowledges and embraces the Innocent without denigrating it. It challenges the nasty stuff and mocks the cynic while applying the same principles to itself. It’s funny as fuck, transgressive, silly, subtle, subversive, absurd, intelligent.

The long and the short is that I’m stoked to see this happening and dude, you may feel laggy, and that really sucks (and by the way, I won’t tell that the neg’s bleeding through if you don’t tell that I still have not written a word for my TYSIC; deal?), but you are actually part of something severely awesome and which is deeply admired by your generational peers, like me.
Which I know you know, really.

Hey ho. If you were, do.

Vive la UKSROAB.
Posted by Gilly on April 11, 2010

My two cents: I like Frankie Boyle, and I often find him very funny. There are some cases in which I believe the reaction to some of his comments has been vastly exaggerated and he has been unfairly demonized (see the mail’s coverage in 2009 of his comment about the Queen in Scene’s we’d like to see). HOWEVER…
His style is to be rude and disrespectful, and to not give a damn who he offends. Which is all very well and good, in its way, but there is a difference between jibes at a sports star, a monarch, or another successful comedian on a panel show and an entire class of people who have no real forum to defend themselves (only newspapers trying to stir up hatred). There are subjects and times when a joke is not funny, merely an insult designed to shock the audience into laughter. Usually a comedian ( from my limited experience watching a lot of them) seems to realize the way those are going down, because he or she wants to be likes. Mr. Boyle really seems to have gotten to the stage of success where he doesn’t care anymore.

The screaming liberal in me wants to say that he can say whatever he wants. But the person, the slightly overweight 19 yr old with a cousin who has down syndrome wants to tell him to pick on someone who can understand and respond. Tell me I’m fat, I’ll threaten to eat him. It’s all good. Just don’t hide behind a veil (I keep using that word) of untouchable apathy to make snide comments about people who are just trying to live with their disability.

In short: Frankie, I love you…make your last tour popular because you’re very funny, not because you’re mean.
Posted by Joelle Stanton on April 11, 2010

I love comedy. This includes very dark humour. I’m aware that not everybody will like so I don’t tend to make those jokes myself around people unless I know they will find it funny as well.

In saying that though, a comedian can’t know everybody who’s in the audience and their family and friend’s histories. If you were to go and see for example Tim Minchin, you’d expect there to be a lot of religious and homeopathic ramblings and be prepared for that or asking The Mighty Boosh to stop swearing so much because your daughter was in the audience, ridiculous.

You don’t often go to a comedian’s show without knowing the type of artist they are, unless they’re new, so to be offended by someone like Frankie Boyle’s work during his own show is rather pedantic.

*fits into the Australian category* Pleasantly surprised to find a new blog up so early
Posted by lisa brunders on April 11, 2010

I’ve always disliked taking the mickey, I don’t like it when it’s about me, or about other people. But I still do it ocassionally, it’s difficult not too! I’m unsure also. freedom of speech is very important, but so is being nice.
Great blog, sorry to hear about your arm and even more sorry about your career. These things are not unrecoverable surely, most comedian’s popularity comes and goes, as long as you can still earn a living, a bad patch is just that, a bad patch. I’m earning less than I have for years, but I still earn enough to live, that’s the main thing. I see it as a phase, a time to rethink a few things maybe, to try and improve myself, ready for the next good phase.
Posted by Spencer on April 11, 2010

Your best blog yet Mark. Maybe you should always write them early!
Posted by Adele on April 11, 2010

Although in not up at 6am, I am up at 6:30am on a Sunday and now have to work. You have my sympathy.

I was actually watching some live comedy last night, as part of an entertainment package for this work exhibition I’m doing, and there were some comments from a pretty darn famous comedian that were just downright nasty with absolutely no attempt at a joke. Someone near me remarked that we’re all so desensitised to harsh words these days that perhaps, close-to-the-bone insults are the only way to get a reaction these days. Maybe she’s right.

A light-hearted look at Down's Syndrome

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